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[Sowelu]

Okay.  What would YOU call the genre that contains Final Fantasy, Suikoden, Baldur's Gate, Fallout, etc., but not (say) Zelda, Metroid, Okami?  It would be nice to know what term to use for that, that you guys would accept. 

If you want to call it a "stat-based computer rpg", then fine, as long as there's some term that we can all agree means the same thing.  We can't agree on RPG, so let's define a new one that we can agree on.

[Yanlin]

RPG.

Those are games focused mostly about playing as a character and following a plot.

That can be called role playing. You're playing a role. A character.

[Rhodan]

I don't get it, you guys just keep quoting a small part of an entire article?  The whole RPG-systems article goes on and on about the different kinds of rules and stats.  Your very own quote even speaks against you:
"A role-playing game system is a set of game mechanics used in a role-playing game (RPG) to determine the outcome of a character's in-game actions. While early role-playing games relied heavily on either group consensus or the judgement of a single player (the "Dungeon Master" or Game Master) or on randomizers such as dice, later generations of narrativist games allow role-playing to influence the creative input and output of the players, so both acting out roles and employing rules take part in shaping the outcome of the game."
It says both, not or, and the rest of the article is about stats.  How do you explain this?  How can you interpret this as "RPGs do not need stats" when all articles so far mention stats as an important element?  Sure, narrative and creative input are important, but those still can't ignore stats, especially not in computer games.

And as far as I know, SS13 still tracks the player's health, so what you can and cannot do is not based purely on player acting, there are also restrictions based on pure numbers.  And apparently you can select disabilities at the start, too, and alter stuff in-game with DNA or medicine.  When a griefer selects a disability for himself, and decides to go OOC suddenly to ruin the game, will he lose his disability once he stops RP'ing it, or will the game still keep the effect?  That's the rules and stats of the game working, making it a true RPG.  Otherwise it'd just be an RP sandbox.

A lot of games are focused on playing a character and following a plot.  Was Zork an RPG?  Is Zelda an RPG?  Is Tomb Raider an RPG?  All these have you follow a plotline, and you can RP some extra character depth if you like, but they are not RPGs.  They use player skill in order to succeed, while an RPG would employ player skill in managing the character's skills.  A lot of the recent "fake" RPGs use levelling and stats to help the player kill stuff, still using player's skill at shooting and clicking.  Like Fallout 3 and carp like that.

Playing a role, a character, is indeed role playing.  It does not make any game a Role Playing Game, since that's a term for something bigger, which is ill-defined but does happen to mention the use of statistics in every single article so far, mentioning role play as what gives the games their flavor.

[Yanlin]

...

You are still completely missing the point.

EVERY SINGLE GAME EVER MADE IN THE EXISTENCE OF THIS ENTIRE PLANET contains stats.

But stats != RPG!

[Rhodan]

My entire point is that without stats, it's not an RPG, not that RPGs equal stats, just that stats are an important part of any RPG.  Without stats it's not an RPG, not even a game, just an RP.

The whole discussion began with you saying the game should not have stats, like a huge sandbox.
Then I said this would not be an MMORPG.
Then you said: "Why not? Massively multiplayer? Check. Online? Check. Role playing? User dependent. Game? Check."
Then I went on about how you'd still need stats for it to be an MMORPG.  After that, things went out of hand with people saying you don't need stats to RP, which is besides the point since I was arguing that without stats it would just be an MMORP. Massively Multiplayer Online Role Play.  But not a game.
So please, please stop misinterpreting me when I say you need stats for an RPG.  I did not say that RPGs are only about stats.  (Even though 99% of all RPGs up until now rely heavily on them)  Many RPGs are played for the story that unfolds.
"You need soles to make shoes" does not mean "Soles are shoes.", stop interpreting it as that.

So anyways, I'm glad we finally agree.   If every game ever has stats, then an RPG without stats is not a game and thus not an RPG.  Without role play, it's not an RPG either. (although even sucky RP can count as RP, so WoW on a non RP server is still an MMORPG)

And, deep down I still think that your character's abilities are what form your character.  Y'know, good, evil, smart, strong, weak, skilled, vengeful... so in any form of roleplay there will have to be some kind of stats, your character has to be defined.  RP is about your character and its role, and a character is the sum of its abilities and its past experiences.  You cannot have a character without defining how strong or clever or social it is.  A character is stats in a well-narrated package.  The whole world is defined by a kind of math, is it not?

[Yanlin]

No. We do not agree. Because RPGs don't need stats to be RPGs. Every single game needs some form of stats to even exist. But you don't need "stats" determining your success chances or some such to make it an RPG. All it has to include is roleplaying and gameplay. The Thief series could qualify as an RPG.

[Rhodan]

Except it's not, it's an Action/Adventure, more precisely a stealth game.  It's rarely, if ever, classified as an RPG on any game site I looked at, including the box I have at home.
Besides, Garrett's skills at sneaking depend on your skill as a player to stay in the shadows and move around silently.  How are you playing the role of a Master Thief if this Thief is only as good as you are?  Garrett's aim, reflexes, combat skill,... they all depend on you, the player, and not on Garrett as a character in the world of Thief.  Thief is most certainly not an RPG.

Something has to define whether your character fails or succeeds at a task like stabbing or picking a lock.  If this something is the player, then you're playing an action game.  This something has to be the character itself.  A good thief would be unlikely to fail a picking a lock, no matter how bad the player is at lockpicking.  The skill has to come with the character, not with the player.  So it has to be a statistic, especially in games.  Period.  It can also come with acting and storytelling, but those don't work inside videogames.  And even in real life RP, the story would still have to depend on the character's skill at lockpicking, which most likely can be compared to any other character's lockpicking skill and this is a measurable statistic.

[Yanlin]

The chance of success is vital for roleplay. But it does not need to be decided by stats. Stats are a tool. Not a requirement.

As for filling in the character's skill with the player's skill, that constitutes as "Being" the character. A further element of roleplay. Often enhanced with various things to make it easier like simplified controls and enhanced reality. (HUD)

The only reason Thief is not an RPG is because, first and foremost, it's an FPS.

[Rhodan]

I disagree here.  Player skill should not influence the skill of your character.  It never has in most RPGs up until now, the only exception being LARP (Live-action Roleplay), and then only in certain forms or LARP.  Recent action RPGs like Morrowind and Oblivion are blurring the line, but they're hybrids, not pure RPGs.
I'd also love to see an example of this magical thing that can decide your chance of success while not being a statistic.  A statistic is your character's ability, so how can your character's success be determined by anything other than his own skill compared with the task at hand? (dice-rolls and narrative altering the chance, but still keeping close to the abilities)  If it's determined by the player's skill, the character is incomplete, it doesn't have it's own skills, it's just a puppet instead of a hero guided by unseen forces.

[Yanlin]

Rhodan: Player skill is not part of RPGs.

Call it what you want. But the core concept remains. Role playing game. You roleplay and you game. The game can be whatever.

[Rhodan]

Your core concept is flawed, you're separating the concepts while they are supposed to be one whole.
Waterskiing means you go ski on water.  It does not mean you ski underwater, it does not mean you ski with a bucket of water on your head, it does not mean you ski with skis filled with water.  Even though they all have water, and you ski.
A racing game is game where you race.  Not just "racing and gaming", it's not playing chess while speeding on the highway.  The racing is the game.  Let's add action cut scenes to solitaire!  It'll have action, and a game! Action game!

Same with many other concepts, their names are more than the sum of their parts.
Role playing game does not just mean that you roleplay and play a game.  It means you play a game that involves roleplay.  The game has to have something to do with the roleplay at hand, it has to incorporate certain roleplay aspects.  Otherwise it's just a game, where you roleplay, but not a roleplaying game.  Otherwise you're just dismissing a concept that has been around for decades.

Back to your first argument, you mentioned an MMORPG where everyone had equal skills and do whatever.  That's not a game, it's a sandbox.  You can play in a sandbox, but the sandbox itself will never be a game.  So even by your definition of RPG, your original idea is still not an RPG, it's not a game, it's something people can play their own games in.

I'm also still waiting for the magical thing that can decide your chance of success while not using a measure of your character's abilities to compare against certain rules.

[Sergius]

roleplaying game: a game where you roleplay
football: a ball shaped as a foot
pop music: music that goes "pop!"
laptop: the area on top of your lap
glass of water: glass made from water
television: when you can see far, far away
personal computer: a computer only you can use. like your toothbrush.
toothbrush: a brush carved out of a tooth
firewall: oh noes...

[Yanlin]

Your core concept is flawed, you're separating the concepts while they are supposed to be one whole.
Waterskiing means you go ski on water.  It does not mean you ski underwater, it does not mean you ski with a bucket of water on your head, it does not mean you ski with skis filled with water.  Even though they all have water, and you ski.
A racing game is game where you race.  Not just "racing and gaming", it's not playing chess while speeding on the highway.  The racing is the game.  Let's add action cut scenes to solitaire!  It'll have action, and a game! Action game!

Same with many other concepts, their names are more than the sum of their parts.
Role playing game does not just mean that you roleplay and play a game.  It means you play a game that involves roleplay.  The game has to have something to do with the roleplay at hand, it has to incorporate certain roleplay aspects.  Otherwise it's just a game, where you roleplay, but not a roleplaying game.  Otherwise you're just dismissing a concept that has been around for decades.

Back to your first argument, you mentioned an MMORPG where everyone had equal skills and do whatever.  That's not a game, it's a sandbox.  You can play in a sandbox, but the sandbox itself will never be a game.  So even by your definition of RPG, your original idea is still not an RPG, it's not a game, it's something people can play their own games in.

I'm also still waiting for the magical thing that can decide your chance of success while not using a measure of your character's abilities to compare against certain rules.

There's roleplay, there's enforced roleplay and there's restricted roleplay. Stats are restricted roleplay. SS13 is enforced roleplay.

Theif series would be regular roleplay.

Generally, all games with enforced roleplay and up are RPGs.

roleplaying game: a game where you roleplay
football: a ball shaped as a foot
pop music: music that goes "pop!"
laptop: the area on top of your lap
glass of water: glass made from water
television: when you can see far, far away
personal computer: a computer only you can use. like your toothbrush.
toothbrush: a brush carved out of a tooth
firewall: oh noes...

A bus station is where a bus stops. A train station is where a train stops. At my office I have a work station...

[Rhodan]

Please find me a reference where RPGs are classed according to these criteria.
All RP is restricted, you cannot do something your character is not able to.
'Enforced RP' is a term that only pops up in places where people want other people to stay in character all the time.  It's not directly related to any 'style' of RP.  It just means people really frown upon elves discussing the Simpsons.
If the Thief series are regular roleplay, I'm lost.  You're not even roleplaying a master thief, you just run around being all sneaky as a thief, but the master bit is your skill at the game, not the character's.

I'm also still waiting for the magical thing that can decide your chance of success while not using a measure of your character's abilities to compare against certain rules.  This is your chance of shutting me up.  If you can provide this thing, all my previous arguments about some form of stats being required would be nullified.

The chance of success is vital for roleplay. But it does not need to be decided by stats. Stats are a tool. Not a requirement.

Please, please show me an example of this, and how it applies to RPGs, and end this discussion.  Please.

[Soulwynd]