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[Gunner-Chan]

Uh... Role playing is about being in character.

Not about having various customizable stats.

EXACTLY, at least someone gets it. That's also why the better CRPGs are more open to that kind of play, though nothing is wrong with a good JPRG either.

[Rhodan]

In that case you'd just have an MMORP.  This is an MMORPG we're discussing.  In order for it to be a role playing game, the game has to provide role playing.  It's the game that has to force you to remain in character to a certain extent, which can only be done with stats, skills and the like.
There's a difference between RP and RPG.  The difference is the Game.  A game is basically rules, and the only way a game can provide rules without having human AI, is by crunching numbers.

Is it so hard to grasp that the genre of computer games known as RPGs requires a form of stats for the player or his party?  Just like a racing game requires a finish line and a platformer requires jumping (or similar)?  Sure, you can race in WoW or roleplay in Counterstrike, but the nature of the game is defined by the mechanics.

Staying in character or having good character development is what makes an RPG good, though.  Just like it's the level design that makes Mario good and not the jumping itself.

[Okenido]

You don't need stats to stay within character.

I fail to see why you come to this conclusion.

[Yanlin]

In that case you'd just have an MMORP.  This is an MMORPG we're discussing.  In order for it to be a role playing game, the game has to provide role playing.  It's the game that has to force you to remain in character to a certain extent, which can only be done with stats, skills and the like.
There's a difference between RP and RPG.  The difference is the Game.  A game is basically rules, and the only way a game can provide rules without having human AI, is by crunching numbers.

Is it so hard to grasp that the genre of computer games known as RPGs requires a form of stats for the player or his party?  Just like a racing game requires a finish line and a platformer requires jumping (or similar)?  Sure, you can race in WoW or roleplay in Counterstrike, but the nature of the game is defined by the mechanics.

Staying in character or having good character development is what makes an RPG good, though.  Just like it's the level design that makes Mario good and not the jumping itself.

Come play SS13 with us. There are no stats there but EVERYONE RPs and has fun.

Stats are arbitrary.

Besides, an MMORP is, by extension, an MMORPG. Because if it has no game, nobody is playing it. Thus, it is merely an ORP.

[Volfram]

Excuse me for asking a potentialy very stupid question, but doesn't the monster hunter model essentialy mean you have to grind for loot? Or does it work in such a way that you can get the good stuff without doing a lot? If so, doesn't the game stop being interesting quickly?

Yes, for the most part, getting loot is something of a grind.  You can buy most of the weapons and armor at the Shop, but you can generally get better stuff for cheaper right next door at the armor crafter, where you have to supply necessary materials(@&#^ Iron and Machalite ore...)

Battle Cap from the store, costs 1500 Gp, has 10 base defense.  At the crafter, I pay 750 Gp, but I also need to supply two stones, two Kelbi hides(Kelbi are like deer), a pair of berries, and a pair of small bones.  Or for 1350 Gp, I got my current Genprey helm, with 22 base defense, but I also had to supply one hide and four scales from beach-raptors(one hide or scale per raptor, but they're minor monsters), 4 pieces of Iron Ore, and 2 of my current 33 "Small Monster Bones"

Then, there are the special armor, which require rare items(Kut-Ku coin, which requires you to kill a Yuan Kut-Ku, a low-level Wyvern monster, or the Felyne Meal Pass, which I can't remember how I got mine)

My current goal is to collect one of each weapon and armor.

However, the real appeal of the game is exploration(you get cutscenes of certain areas and events you've seen which you can later replay in the theater mode) and playing with friends(which thus far, I've found two people willing to play with me... One has an attention span like mine, and she has issues with the small-screen format(something I'm trying to find a resolution to), so I haven't managed to go hunting with her, while the other... was a horndog with the hots for the girl, and his interest didn't last past my announcement that I'd found a hunting partner.

Notably, though, the level-less system changes the power dynamic.  Because your power is determined by your armor and weapon instead of the number of goons you've killed, and your actual effectiveness is dependent on your real-life skill, instead of your character stats, it's not unthinkable for a starter character to plow through the story hunts naked, just upgrading your weapon.(Some of the later monsters, you have to have a certain quality weapon or you won't even be able to deal damage.), and I actually started a brand new character with that exact purpose in mind.

[Rhodan]

You don't need stats to stay within character.

I fail to see why you come to this conclusion.

That's because you fail to see the difference between roleplaying and roleplaying games.  There's an extra word in there, that means they're not the same.  Just roleplaying is not a game, it's improvised acting.  A roleplaying game is a game and thus involves rules.  In video games, rules can only be expressed by numbers and formulas -> stats.  You can roleplay inside a roleplaying game.
If your game allows for roleplay without keeping track of any stats or numbers, it's not an RPG, it's just a virtual world.
If they were the same thing, having an RP-enforced server on MMORPG's would be kinda redundant.

[Okenido]

Well there's obvious rules for roleplaying.

Generally one cannot be a bishie, elf, vampire, werewolf with the power to overpower gods, and seduce women no matter their sexual preference.

Unfortunately you seem stuck upon the thought of roleplaying games means increasing numbers by repeatedly killing monsters.

[Chutney]

There's a difference between acting and playing a game 

Being a game maker (or soon to be a game maker, rather), I do have to say that there is a difference between role playing and a role playing game. Space Station 13 is a role playing game in that you do play the role of your character, acting as if you were them, but there are also constraints in that you acquire certain items to perform specific tasks, have to move within the boundaries of the game world, etc. All qualities of a game. (The general definition of 'game' is a set of rules with a set of clearly defined rules that provide constraints to what the player can and cannot do, with a goal for the player to achieve). So no, increasing numbers and killing monsters are not required, but some kind of interaction between the player and the game has to happen.
Just role playing is different in that there are no set constraints you must follow. There is nothing stopping you from killing another character because you just gained the power of a god when you're just role playing. There really are no rules as characters can do anything they want (unless there is a moderator or something, kicking people who break rules), especially if there is no 'game world', or a 'game world' that is created by players.

Urgh, defining a game is really hard, and I don't think I'm making too much sense or even supporting my own ideas.
By the way, I learned this in a game design course for university. I'm not taking a game design major, but my programming major requires me to take a few courses on game design.

[Rhodan]

Space Station 13 has health though, that's sort of stats.   I don't mean stats literally, they can also also be classes or equipment, just something that defines the character according to its role.

[Okenido]

Sadly for your argument several games have health, and classes.

Due to that you label these games as RPGs: Team Fortress 2, Halo, Cortex Command, Generally, La Mulana, Cave Story, Touhou Project, Spelunky, DOOM, XCOM, Clonk, Mike Tyson's Punch Out!, Star Control, Warcraft II, Warzone 2100, Bootfigher Windom XP, Grand Theft Auto 2, and hell you can even consider Fate/stay Night as an RPG with that loose of a definition.

[Yanlin]

Chutney, I am convinced you are just trying to defame the words "Role playing game"

Allow me to pull up a definition.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Role-playing_game

Does not mention stats. Mentions constraints. Which always exist.

But yes. Any game where you can roleplay is not a roleplaying game by default. It has to be designed that way. For example, you could roleplay in TF2, but it would be quite futile and unfun.

But roleplaying games have NOTHING to do with stats. Stats are arbitrary.

I know wikipedia isn't too much of a credible source, but that definition checks out.

In SS13, you do not have a personality. You RP one. You do not have stats. (Strength, stamina, whatever.) You CAN RP them! Your age is meaningless. You can RP it!

Really, roleplay is all about the player. Not the stats.

[Rhodan]

Did you even read that article?  The very first paragraph mentions "Participants determine the actions of their characters based on their characterization, and the actions succeed or fail according to a formal system of rules and guidelines."
Then there's the entire section with the header "Statistics".
Ooh, even better.  There's a bit that goes "The challenge of producing a video game with which players can interact through role-playing, rather than simply a framework within which they can interact with each other, is yet to be answered.[1] Within the computer industry, the term "RPG" instead refers to role-playing video games.", which leads to an article discussing RPG's as in the video games.  That's what this thread is about, no?  In there we find an even more explicit mention of stats in RPGs, including a bit about these stats having leaked into other genres, such a GTA and stuff.

Anyways, since you guys apparently don't even read your own definitions, arguing seems like a lost cause.
You don't need stats to roleplay, you do need stats for an RPG.  Read the wikipedia article again, and check out the source links on the bottom. Good luck.

[Yanlin]

Did you even read that article?  The very first paragraph mentions "Participants determine the actions of their characters based on their characterization, and the actions succeed or fail according to a formal system of rules and guidelines."
Then there's the entire section with the header "Statistics".
Ooh, even better.  There's a bit that goes "The challenge of producing a video game with which players can interact through role-playing, rather than simply a framework within which they can interact with each other, is yet to be answered.[1] Within the computer industry, the term "RPG" instead refers to role-playing video games.", which leads to an article discussing RPG's as in the video games.  That's what this thread is about, no?  In there we find an even more explicit mention of stats in RPGs, including a bit about these stats having leaked into other genres, such a GTA and stuff.

Anyways, since you guys apparently don't even read your own definitions, arguing seems like a lost cause.
You don't need stats to roleplay, you do need stats for an RPG.  Read the wikipedia article again, and check out the source links on the bottom. Good luck.

Characterization has more to do with personality. A formal system of rules and guidelines != stats.

Stop trying to find fallacies and try to not defame the word. You know what's a defamed word? Racism. That's defamed.

[Rhodan]

Read that article again, it includes character motivation as a possible form of statistics.
If a game were to determine if a player's action succeeds or fails based on a set of rules and guidelines, what exactly is it going to base the outcome on if there is no representation whatsoever of the player's abilities?
"Can I pick this lock?" "Nope."
"Can I pick this lock?" "If you have enough experience with locks, perhaps."  Which one is the RPG?
If the computer has to decide whether or not your character can do something, that's a stat, skill, whatever.  It's a role playing game, so the game itself has to provide at least some of the rules. Usually the ones involving dice and numbercrunching.

Another example:
If I go to a LARP, my character being an elf wizard, and roleplay a scene in which I encounter a big muscled warrior in a boxing ring, who would win?  My elf couldn't possibly beat the warrior with pure strength, any good RP'er knows that.  Why is this?  Because the warrior is stronger.  Oh, look, stats.  See?  Doesn't even have to be on the computer to involve stats.

Stats keep track of your character to avoid you saying "Oh, and my elf is actually as strong as 10 bears with shark nunchucks." and they allow the computer to know what your character can and cannot do.  Rules and guidelines need interesting input to give interesting results.  This input is your character, in the form of attributes and statistics.  This can be in pure number form or just by common sense, but computers can only use numbers.

[Virex]

as strong as 10 bears with shark nunchucks."

On a sidenote, that'd make an excelent scale to rate a characters strenght on.