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[MrWiggles]

Belief matter very much.
And it shouldn't be 'it works for me fuck off!', as there are many harmful beliefs that do not harm you but harm those who participate and forced to participate.

What about the children who die because there folks think evidence based medicine is evil?

What about the kids who die in exorcism?

Or the belief that being anorexic is a life style?

What about the belief that get albino dragged off in the middle of the night, brutally killed and their various body parts used for making magic potions?

Or the one who get seriously harmed from these beliefs?

There are lots of neutral beliefs that don't harm others or those who practice.

However, how can you decipher this without inquiry or challenge? 

[LegoLord]

MrWiggles, to be fair, you were arguing against all religions, not just the neutral ones of which you speak (mine, for example).  Please try to stay on topic, and please don't derail this into another debate.  I understand you think those are fun, but they get tiring.

[MrWiggles]

MrWiggles, to be fair, you were arguing against all religions, not just the neutral ones of which you speak (mine, for example).  Please try to stay on topic, and please don't derail this into another debate.  I understand you think those are fun, but they get tiring.

No I wasn't. I never want to see the abolishment of religion.

Challenge and Inquiry isn't intolerance. A belief doesn't get to be immune inquiry because its a belief.

And this is true because beliefs can be very harmful.

[Sordid]

Not voicing one's beliefs is not tolerance, and neither is not criticizing the beliefs of othrs. That is yielding to intolerance. Tolerance is not being offended by what others say, even if it doesn't agree with what you believe.
Edit: No, wait, especially if it doesn't agree with what you believe. If it does, then you're not so much tolerating it as agreeing with it.

[Ampersand]

There is a fine line though. If someone declares that I deserve to be tortured for an infinite span of time (ie, go to the Christian hell), should I be okay with them thinking that? Is it intolerant for me to not want to associate with someone who believes that the worst possible thing ever should happen to me because of how I think?

[Yanlin]

Belief matter very much.
And it shouldn't be 'it works for me fuck off!', as there are many harmful beliefs that do not harm you but harm those who participate and forced to participate.

What about the children who die because there folks think evidence based medicine is evil?

What about the kids who die in exorcism?

Or the belief that being anorexic is a life style?

What about the belief that get albino dragged off in the middle of the night, brutally killed and their various body parts used for making magic potions?

Or the one who get seriously harmed from these beliefs?

There are lots of neutral beliefs that don't harm others or those who practice.

However, how can you decipher this without inquiry or challenge? 

See, there's plenty of nice and dandy religions that are all about peace and bettering mankind. Like Buddhism, Confucianism...

But then there are the main religions that were taken too far. Judaism, Christianity, ESPECIALLY Islam. I'm not saying all Jews and Christians are bad. In fact, most of them aren't bad. But some of them are. I refuse to call them Christians or Jews. That would be an insult to the rest of those people. Same ordeal with blacks. I regret to say it, but a lot of black people I met are all "YOU WHITE PEOPLE ARE RACISTS SO I'LL GO AHEAD AND BE A CRIMINAL AND SMOKE DRUGS!". This makes me furious because there are plenty of good honest decent black people. But these criminal ones are giving them a bad name.

By the way, I label most Islam this way too. The entire religion is all about converting or killing every other religion. Look at their living conditions. Look at-- No. I'm gonna stop right here. This is not for this discussion. Feel free to PM me. Or just Google Pat Condell or Fitna.



Back on track: http://www.cracked.com/article_15759_10-things-christians-atheists-can-must-agree-on.html

This. Just read.

[Sordid]

There is a fine line though. If someone declares that I deserve to be tortured for an infinite span of time (ie, go to the Christian hell), should I be okay with them thinking that? Is it intolerant for me to not want to associate with someone who believes that the worst possible thing ever should happen to me because of how I think?

I don't think it would be intolerant to not associate with them, but insisting that they don't voice their beliefs would be. I dunno, I'm perfectly okay with it if people think I'm going to hell (or for that matter that hell exists). Why should it matter to me one iota what people childish enough to believe something like that think of me?

[Ampersand]

It's the thought that counts. If someone comes up to me and declares that I deserve to be tortured forever, does it really matter why he thinks that? Should I tolerate that idea, just because it's backed by religion? Should I back up and say that his belief that I deserve to be tortured forever is his business and none of mine, despite his belief being something explicitly about me?

[MrWiggles]

There is a fine line though. If someone declares that I deserve to be tortured for an infinite span of time (ie, go to the Christian hell), should I be okay with them thinking that? Is it intolerant for me to not want to associate with someone who believes that the worst possible thing ever should happen to me because of how I think?

I don't think it would be intolerant to not associate with them, but insisting that they don't voice their beliefs would be. I dunno, I'm perfectly okay with it if people think I'm going to hell (or for that matter that hell exists). Why should it matter to me one iota what people childish enough to believe something like that think of me?

I agree with this, tolerance isn't acceptance  It allowing for them to have a different belief. If you don't like it, you don't have to associate with it.

I would be careful, and not let this turn into a form of apathy. 

[Sordid]

@Ampersand: Sure. Tolerance doesn't mean that you have to like it, or consider it to be true, or that you're not allowed to criticize or object to it, it just means you don't persecute and try to suppress it by force. Nothing more.

[LegoLord]

Well, the real torture treatment is supposedly for really bad people, not non-believers, despite the preachings of radical missionaries.

The idea of not believing sending you to hell was, most likely, a tactic to convert people at a younger day and age (of the world, not people) when the ideas of human rights were not so advanced as they are now, as I understand it.

[Ampersand]

Yes, I agree, but it sounds like from the way Lego is putting it, that if I attempt to protest and declare, no, you're wrong, I don't deserve that kind of torture forever for reason X, Y, and Z, I'm being intolerant.

If you believe the bible to be true, even just the words of Jesus in the bible to be true, a person who wholly doubts the Holy Spirit, as it is put, not only cannot go to heaven, but they cannot be forgiven. Ever. Nothing done after that moment of doubt will EVER matter, because you've done the one thing that is unforgivable. That thought renders a person to Hell, to be tortured, forever. You may not personally think that, but that is what the book the Churches of the world teaches. If you want to pick and choose, then pick and choose, but don't then also call the bible infallible.

[MrWiggles]

Well, the real torture treatment is supposedly for really bad people, not non-believers, despite the preachings of radical missionaries.

The idea of not believing sending you to hell was, most likely, a tactic to convert people at a younger day and age (of the world, not people) when the ideas of human rights were not so advanced as they are now, as I understand it.

Well, if were going to get really technical. The bible doesn't speak much to hell at all. A lot of it are inventions of the various sects of Christiandom. Hell didn't really become popular until the medieval ages, and has always been used as a fear tactic.
Also fun link on the common grounds of theist and atheist. I don't agree with them all, But common, it been said once. It'll be said again. Getting atheist to agree on something is like herding cats.

[Muz]

But then there are the main religions that were taken too far. Judaism, Christianity, ESPECIALLY Islam.

The entire religion is all about converting or killing every other religion. Look at their living conditions. Look at-- No. I'm gonna stop right here. This is not for this discussion. Feel free to PM me. Or just Google Pat Condell or Fitna.

Hold on, I can't just let you attack a religion and then run off under the "this is not on topic" defense. You broke rule 1, and I'm going to rebend it.

Islam is not at all about war. I urge you not to belief people who are taking verses phrase by phrase, out of context. Some of the more fanatical Muslims do it, and the more fanatical anti-Muslims do the same thing. It's about peace and 'jihad' does not mean "kill all people"; it's literally "doing something for God", but fanatics would use the term to mean "killing for God".

Covering hair is no more sexist than covering boobs. Covering the face isn't a part of Islam. Heck, most things aren't a part of Islam, it's more of a problem of middle eastern culture. Like you yourself wrote right there, the criminal ones are giving them a bad name. Don't judge one before you meet one.

Fitna is just as ridiculous as Borat. The verses were all badly translated and taken out of context.

[Gorjo MacGrymm]

Well, if were going to get really technical. The bible doesn't speak much to hell at all. A lot of it are inventions of the various sects of Christiandom.

I agree!
alert - ramblings and musings ahead written with poor grammar.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I grew up in a very Christian based school.  We had chapel and bible class everyday.  One of the good things they taught us in bible class was all the history/differences/rewrites/mistakes that make up just one version of the book.  So many different sects have rewritten the book to suit their own beliefs.  The protestant bible completely disregards many books in the catholic bible, calls them the apocrypha.  The "bible" itself was defined as a complete text by the church around (i am guessing here from memory, i am sure someone will correct me) 440AD.  you can sure bet there was a lot of argument involved into the cannonization of that book.  What about the gospel of timothy?  or  james?  All the disciples wrote one.  now lets get to "hell".  Jesus mentions in the new testament that dying without salvation is like bring in the Valley of Gehenna.  For those who would like to know what gehenna actually is:  It was the trash dump of jerusalem.  it was where the city dumped its waste.  It wasnt hell, wasnt fire and brimstone (although they did burn much trash), it was just where discarded things are collected.  It is in the book of revelations that the modern "hell" is found.  It is the book of revelations that, i think, actually bothers the atheists.  Oddly, the book also bothers many well regarded christian theologians.  It is "assumed" to be written by John the apostle, even though he would have been over 165 years old when it was written.  Very little hard documentation concerning the origins of "Revelations" is avaliable, compared to other new testament texts.  Learning these things in a christian bible school was very interesting.  they wanted us to think.  they wanted us to find our own truth about God, and discovering that truth is a life-long process filled with wonder, sorrow and blatant idiocy.  For Christians, the only really relevant verse in the entire bible is John 3:15.  everything else is crap for people to argue over.  crap that has NO CORE effect on the "way to heaven".  it doesnt care how you think the universe was created, what is or isnt literal word of god, wether or not humans and monkeys evolved from a common ancestors; its all meaningless against john 3:15, inasmuch as what "Being a Christian" means.  no churches, tithes, donations, televangelists, sins, atrocities, acts; no creationism, paganism, realism, philosphy, psycho-babblism, socialism, materialism; no pink inviso unicorns, blue dragons behind the andromeda galaxy or whatever.  you can believe any and all of that you want as long as you pay heed to John 3:15.  John 3:15 mentions no hell, no torment, no punishment, just a continuation of existence or not, based solely on one simple belief.  the rest is mental masturbation for fun and profit - and forum arguing  - as far as christians are concerned.

OR at least this is what i think/what i have learned/what i have observed