Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Align]

Like how? Also why?

[NahNahNahNah_SLUGMAN]

quote:Originally posted by Align:
<STRONG>Like how?</STRONG>

Open a volcano beneath your fortress. Infest all water with carp. Summon 50 nobles and 50 hammerers. Make fire snakes love booze. Spontaneous generation of a 3 level aquifer. Your army decides sparring naked means learning faster. All the levers in your fortress flip. Turn all obsidian into bituminous coal. Turn all  magnetite into iron men. Ice age glacier takes over the map. The loss of all masterpieces.

Who knows. Think of something involving epic and fail. [/joking and sarcasm]

[Belteshazzar]

I rather liked the idea of magic flows proposed in a thread a while back. While everyone is so adamant on having runic magic wouldn't this be covered by allowing special Engravings to collect and channel magic through the fortress. Make special engravings radiate heat, cold, life energy, ect but require you to power them by channeling magical flow through your fortress. This could allow for some cool circuit board forts whose entire purpose is to channel and concentrate raw magical energy to the workshops and forges for use in artifacts and enchantments.
Even traps could become more sadi.. er efficient. That goblin warlock or shaman tossing too many fireballs and melting to many walls for your liking? Lets see what happens when you drain his entire sector of magic? Or perhaps you want to do worse and pump him so full of magic that his head explodes and his bodyguards turn into daemons or sheep? Make your entire fortress into a giant magical yamamoto cannon for extra fun against sieges. Of course I want their to be possible mistakes for throwing magic around willy nilly. I loove Warhammer's Warp for just this reason. Even storing magic in gems or crystals for trade should have some insignificant chance of risk simply for fun, because as the G-man always says "Prepare for Unforeseen consequences."

[SirHoneyBadger]

I'm not adamant about Runic magic either. I think it could have a place in the game, but the reason I wrote about elemental magic instead of runic magic is that runic magic-in the context of Dwarf Fortress-is pretty ambiguous.

In mythology, Runes were discovered by the Norse god Odin, who hung himself on the world-tree for 9 days, and after 9 days, branches falling from the world-tree formed into the Runes that made up the Norse alphabet. That's Vikings. This isn't Viking Fortress and Dwarfs are not vikings.

While the Runes thus created had, ofcourse, certain magical connotations, and were used in certain magical applications, they mostly just functioned as an alphabet, and the magical effects they *did* express, were used to raise the dead, for divination, and to curse enemies and thieves. There were a few cases where runes were inscribed on items to promote healing and protection, but aside from the fact that the Runes themselves were a written alphabet that happened to be used in magic, and the ways the Runes themselves-as an alphabet-happened to be used, there isn't anything "Dwarfish" about them. It's all circumstantial.

The problem with that is, any magic system based on Runic magic has to rely on the specifics of the system itself for any depth of imagination, creativity, etc. You're creating everything pretty much out of thin air.

In defense of Elementalism:
The system I've described above, Elementalism, isn't like every other magic system out there-I know that, because I'm familiar with most of the major magic systems used in role-playing and computer games over the last 20 years.
It's not generic, and it's not meant to be generic. The characteristics of the system described tie in with the whole picture of Dwarf Fortress. You're doing basically the same things, for basically the same reasons, only in different directions, directions that the game itself is headed in, anyway. And it doesn't preclude the use of Runic magic (which I think would be a fine addition to the game) Alchemy, or other types of magic-including ones used by Elves, Humans, and Goblins (Necromancy and Demonology, anyone?). If properly implemented, Elementalism would go hand-in-hand with the rest of the game, past and future.

[ February 15, 2008: Message edited by: SirHoneyBadger ]

[qwertyuiopas]

In all probablility discovery of magic will have to be spread anyway, even without letting other species or civilizations learn.

The detail The Great And Almighty Toady One put into world generation means that fortress x discovering someting and dwarf town y that is a long way away suddenly being able to use it are around 0% for DF 1.whatever, although it may start that way, or magic discoveries may not travel, or we will end up with a few releases where everyone knows everything.

Whatever method, magical discoveries will probably be included, and those discoveries must spread.

Maybe only with [fort race here] traders from [fort civ here], and only to allied and friendly towns/fortresses/caves/etc., but in a game where EVERY person has a name, even if most of them a re dead by the time you can play in the world, less is not an option.

[SirHoneyBadger]

I like the idea of "flows of magic" better than Runes, in terms of implementation. This wouldn't be hard to represent in the game, all you would have to do is add another mineable resource, and label it magic (magic doesn't have to be a "fluid", like water. Veins of minerals shift through the actions of the Earth, temperature changes, etc, and magic might flow like old glass supposedly does, millimeter by millimeter, over aeons.). You would then use this magical resource (mana, anyone?) to work your magic-no intendre intended    

My preference for the "mineable, magical resource" would be Adamantium. If Adamantium embodies raw magic, then having to decide how to utilize it as a resource would make the "end-game" more interesting, as you could then shift over into a whole "magic economy" at a time when the game might otherwise start to become less interesting. It also explains why demons would be hanging around it, they're either attracted to it, created by it, or attain sustenance by the radiation it puts off. Having a large magical economy could also start attracting more, and more powerful and different/interesting demons (imagine armies of fire imps and demons, replacing-and actually attacking and eating-the goblin/troll armies beseiging your fortress, as well as megademons, and weird Cthulhu-type monsters, showing up.).

It even helps explain why Adamantium functions so well. Maybe Adamantium is simply natural diamond (which used to be known as "adamant") which has been exposed to, and absorbed, magical radiaton, over millions of years, and in the process, had it's structure enhanced and changed.

[SirHoneyBadger]

QWERTYUIOPAS: As per magic "spreading", the skills there would certainly be spreadable, but as far as having an affinity for certain KINDS of magic, I think it would be more fun if that was restricted by civilization-if you want "evil" gems, like Fear, Wrath, etc. then you will have to associate with goblins, or invade a fortress that you know has that kind of gem (which opens up a good reason to add Dwarf spy skills to the game   ) Dwarfs are not humans are not goblins are not elves. And trading for goods you can't make yourself can add interest to the game, and gives you a reason to build a fortress near specific civilizations.

[InquisitiveIdiot]

quote:That's Vikings. This isn't Viking Fortress and Dwarfs are not vikings.

In his defense, dwarves themselves come from Norse mythology, so the connection does not require much conceptual hopscotch.  Furthermore, the association of dwarves with runic lettering has been present in virtually every piece of contemporary fantasy (example: dwarves in Tolkein, dwemer in Morrowind, Dwarfish mine-sign in Discworld).  No matter where you take your idea of dwarves from, runes make a very fitting basis for a magic system.

Then again, you've clearly got your own axe to grind and are hard at work doing so, so I'll stop being observant and start ignoring you like everyone else.

[SirHoneyBadger]

Axe to grind? That's punny  

Inquisitiveidiot: I'm not sure if you're being hostile, but since it doesn't really matter, and since your post doesn't really apply to anything, I'll ignore any angry sentiment.

I agree that Dwarfs come out of Norse mythology. I agree that Runes came out of actual Scandinavian history. Runes exist. I had a friend who was a short, bearded alchoholic who wrote articles for national Spelunking magazines, so I'm willing to concede that Dwarfs do exist-but I haven't noticed any dragonships in the game. My Dwarfs have neither burned Christian churches, nor have they wandered off to join the Varangian Guard. They haven't invaded Russia, and a Dwarf king doesn't sit on the English throne.

My Dwarfs certainly aren't raising the dead or crafting ships out of fingernails or living hair from spun gold.
Runes-it is my opinion, and I like to think an educated one-are ambiguously applied to a game of this type. I've given my reasons above, and I believe them to be sound. I'm quite willing to elaborate or debate them, but I refuse to get angry about them, whether or not others disagree with me. Especially if they are so kind as to disagree in a polite, intelligent manner.  

I'd like to point out that this thread is just a suggestion (it's the Suggestions forum, afterall), that I don't have "an axe to grind" of any kind, and that-for that matter-I'm getting pretty good traffic and compliments on it. It's fun for me to write, to come up with ideas for the game. Yes, it would be pleasant if they were implemented-in part or whole-into the game, but I don't have a vested need for that to happen, or even an expectation that it ever will. It's not my game, it just happens to be a game I enjoy.

I also appreciate-but am not in any way starved for-compliments, helpful suggestions, and other constructive comments.

I'm just doing this for fun, for myself, to put my ideas out there and expose them to others with hopefully similar interests and sentiments.

If you have a problem with that, then I suggest you push it down deep, deep inside of you, until it transforms into a burning diamond of hate and shame and disillusionment about the fairness of the world, and then you can carry it around with you for the rest of your life  :mad:

The other option is that we all try to exist in peace, understanding, and harmony, as enlightened adults. Like that's going to happen?

[InquisitiveIdiot]

I apologize if any hostile intent was communicated; I try to save my nerdrage for furries and erotic fanfiction.

I was merely pointing out a fallacy in your argument that you've greatly expanded upon in the above post.  I can never remember the names of these things, but wikipedia calls this one Fallacy of Accident, I think.  Basically, you're over-generalizing and attacking the generalization.  "If people want to use nordic runes then they need to use ALL of viking mythology, which would be silly, so let's not use runes."  

I'm afraid logic doesn't work like that.  Your apparent knowledge of the subject and the fact that you have since entirely ignored the ubiquitous use of dwarvish runes in conventional fantasy lends credence to the theory that your mistake is a deliberate one.

Furthermore, I implied that you were being unfairly harsh to the idea in favor of your own suggestion, and that your argument should therefore be taken with salt.  That's probably a fallacy of my own, though Tak knows which one.

Since I'm feeling contributary and you've mentioned that one of your reasons for preferring pokemon:gemstone over runes as a magic system is the unspecified nature of the latter, I would proffer that as one of its strengths.  We have no preconceived notions of what a runic system would be, so it can be altered as needed to fit in the context of the game.  Such a system could be as simple as a new workshop, an "Inscribe" job task, and another quality modifier.  It can be expanded from there as balance and Toady's time permits.

quote:The other option is that we all try to exist in peace, understanding, and harmony, as enlightened adults.

This is the internets, sir.  We have standards here.  If you want sunshine and huggles, score some weed and join a hippie commune.

[ February 16, 2008: Message edited by: InquisitiveIdiot ]

[Kagus]

I believe this forum used to pride itself on not being a part of the "internets".  Pity that the sanctum has been breached.

[SirHoneyBadger]

InquisitiveIdiot: On one hand, you're basing your argument for Runes having a place in the game because Dwarfs are from Viking mythology which came out of Scandinavian myth, which in turn spawned English contemprary fantasy, which led to modern computer games which include dwarfs, which is where we are now.

That's a pretty exact argument with very specific details and cases, and it's fairly easy to pick apart by simply stating that contemporary fantasy can get boring very quickly if it's conventions aren't regularly turned on their pointy heads, and if shiny new ideas aren't regularly introduced.

On the other hand, you're not only admitting that your only real argument for having Runes in the game is because, well, they're ROONZORS! Dwarf + magic = Runes!!! Everybody else has done it 50 times, why not us?!? while citing the uncertain, ambiguous nature of the Runes themselves as a good proper thing that will  make the game better if it's just monkeywrenched in, and attacking-and you clearly are attacking-a system that, while it may not be all that you want it to be, atleast has some amount of logic and mechanics and thought behind it. And then you're topping it off by questioning my own logic.

I'm not going to ignore you, because that would be too easy. I find it much more challenging and interesting to attempt a mutual understanding between us-if only for the opportunity it grants me to explore and question the rightness of my arguments and position.

First of all, I think you're mistaking one intentional omission for another. One of the big reasons-honestly, the main one-that I haven't been pro Runes up to this point is simply and straightforwardly because I, as an individual, haven't come up with a well thought out way for them to fit neatly into the game.

I'm very much in favor of magic in Dwarf Fortress taking multiple, differentiated, types/forms/paths, what have you. There's room for Runes in the game. There's room for Elementalism, and Alchemy, and whatever magic humans, or elves, or goblins use, and there's plenty of room for other types and ways of magic that I haven't even thought of. It's magic, it's pretty damn flexible stuff.

And that's the point: I can speculate, clearly enough to write about it, how a system dealing with Elementalism could work, what it's based on, how it functions, what you could and couldn't do with it, at every major point in the game, and what it's place in the world would be, past, present, and future.

Runes, for me, inside my head, inside my imagination, are less solid. I see them less clearly, or atleast there's less about them that I have to say. I don't see a problem with that. Noone's put me in charge of describing a whole, complete magical system for Dwarf Fortress. I'm just some guy, with one idea that I'm expressing in this thread, about one form that magic might take.

Now that it's been made clear to me that there's a demand for a system of Rune magic in the game, I'm actually trying to work out a way they might fit into my concept of an overall magic "picture", if you will. Hopefully, others will too, because I think with discussion, debate, and a certain level of competition and low-level conflict, that an environment of creativity can be better maintained.

The reason I'm not bothering to write about something before I have it worked out-the reason why adding something like Runic magic, or any OTHER kind of magic into a game of this nature is a problem, is because it's dangerous to gameplay. If you put the wrong things into a game, in the wrong ways, and don't take the time to think long and hard about what they could be used for, from beginning to end, then sooner or later those things are going to be exploited and abused, which is going to result in bugs, cheating, balancing issues, and every other kind of badness, and which in turn is going to erode the game's fanbase.

A lot more than will an idea that you personally may not like as well as another, but which has implemented and executed well.  

And if you don't like my ideas, that's fine. I'm very much ok with that. I'm not trying to please everybody, I'm only trying to please myself. Frankly, I would enjoy seeing Runes in the game. You're right, they are one logical extension of the Dwarf Fortress concept. Elementalism is another.

As far as "pokemon gemstones" goes, and your continuing attempts at sarcasm-"appology" included-what makes you think that getting under my skin, or whatever goal it is you're attempting to reach, is in any way going to make you look better, or me worse?

For that matter, if we assume you eventually manage to "properly chastise" me, and I wander off, head hung in shame, leaving you to rule gloriously over the Dwarf Forum suggestion board for a thousand years, while I go read a good book in a comfortable chair in a warm house in a nice neighborhood, do you hope that the world will pause for a moment and acknowledge that you have made it a better, brighter place than previously?

Do you think that the person who created this game is going to pat you on the back for discouraging an appreciative fan of his work? One that is willing to put in hours of hard labor trying to help him expand upon his efforts?

In case you haven't noticed, Wal-Mart isn't selling Dwarf Fortress. It's not advertized on tv. There's no celebrity "Dwarf Fortress guy". This game runs on donations from people who care enough about the effort that went into it, and the enjoyment they take out of it, to put their money down. And they continue to put their money down because they want to see the game grow and change, which is the whole point of having a Suggestions Forum.

If you have a better, or supplimentary, or other idea than mine, kindly post it, because the very best you can hope for by continuing to be rude is that you might possibly irritate a complete stranger for a few brief moments, while at the same time disrupting a constructive thread aimed only at improving an activity that you obviously seem to enjoy enough to take an interest in.

[qwertyuiopas]

My idea is that magic is based on semilogical combinations of an extensive collection of "magic source". This MS could be anything, from runes to stones to handsigns to symbols. Anything. New ways of combining these MSs could be accidentally discovered in-game, or logically puzzled out, although the formar leads to more random effects, while the latter ends up close to some previous effect. Knowledge of these discovered combination will spread slowly to appropriate entities through traders and other traveling groups. Some races may not be able to use these MSs or might have this knowledge withheld from them for any reason, so not everyone gains the knowledge. If your fortress discovers some fantastic new thing, a few magical scholars may be sent by other forts or towns, such as your fortress' capital. New magical knowledge would have to be spread before it can be used, and some new quests could come from it, such as "retrieve the sectets of <rival civilization/settlement's> <magical> and return with it." You would end up with adventurer spread knowledge, siege spread knowledge, trader spread knowledge, and knowledge spread by specific visitors. A certain amount of magical knowledge would be discovered during world generation. Another option would be a god telling it's minions secrets to use against their opponents, in which cases it would be close to the god's type.

Of course this is just an idea, but it would be interesting.

[InquisitiveIdiot]

quote:I believe this forum used to pride itself on not being a part of the "internets". Pity that the sanctum has been breached.

I know you're just making a wistful, semi-snarky comment, but I feel like elaborating.  And when I get to talking, I will lecture rocks if need be.

Sadly, the notion that there was at any point a barrier between this forum and the unwashed masses of the internet is merely an illusion.  Many internet communities face this; grizzled veterans of well-nigh two years will look around and despair.  "What happened to this place?  It used to be so fun!"  They'll grouse and bitch about the newbies until the newbies hang around long enough to join in against the NEW newbies.

What happened of course was success.  With a mostly unknown game, the fan population was small enough for everyone to agree on everything.  Anyone who wouldn't be satisfied by the game wouldn't find it worthwhile to stick around, so troubles were avoided largely by not arising in the first place.

As more and more people pile on, a larger pool of diverse opinions greatly increases the potential for conflict between nerds who are nerdy enough to waste their time arguing on the internet.  Far from looking back longingly, this new phase should be embraced as a sign of a healthy community.  The only game no one fights about is one that no one plays.

The other option, as a community grows, is to pile on rules and moderators to terminate any discussion that reaches beyond the limits of whatever arbitrary standards of communication the moderators (not you, them) agree upon.  This has the extremely deleterious effect of stifling creativity in discussion.  As a practical application, I would encourage you to find a large community with rational and polite discussion that is not ruled by the iron fist of a tyrant, where all posters who reject the party line or pose a challenge in any way are not banned on sight.

All in all, I greatly prefer a little noise mixed in with my signal.

HoneyBadger:

Your post veers back and forth like my uncle driving himself home on Saturday night, so I hope you will not mind if I take it a little out of order in response.

First of all, let me reiterate my reason for joining the thread.  I am not advocating a runic system of magic for DF, merely pointing out that your stated reasons for rejecting the same, namely "It's not dwarfy and I don't grok it" is vague and inaccurate at best, though you have tried to state it from a position of authority.  I went on to suggest that your true reason for rejection can be phrased simply: "It's not mine."

To turn your logic around, you claim to be rejecting the idea of runes as magic both because it's too dwarfy: "contemporary fantasy can get boring very quickly if it's conventions aren't regularly turned on their pointy heads" and not dwarfy enough: "That's Vikings. This isn't Viking Fortress and Dwarfs are not vikings."  I'm afraid you have to choose one or the other.

Now, perhaps we can agree on one thing, at least: whichever system we assume will be implemented, its effects on gameplay will be the same.  That is, a dwarf with a magic-labor enabled will take an item, say a sword, into a magic-workshop, possibly with one or more reagents. He will in a short time leave the workshop with the newly-enchanted sword, which now glows and whispers to you at night.  There may be preprocessing steps, where the enchanting dwarf first has to prep the prestidigitator with the correct combobulatory mixture to charge the flangamajik, but the net effect is the same regardless of which explanation is used for fluff.  

With that established, our debate is reduced to two people having an internet argument over imaginary descriptions of electronic actions by simulated fantasy races.  I'm sure there's an image macro or two appropriate to the triviality of this situation.

As for your other argument, that runic magic doesn't make sense inside your head, I cannot offer much help.  Doing so would be a waste of my time, frankly.  Like teaching evolution to a creationist, you've rejected the idea already, your mind is closed to it, and no amount of logic is likely to sway you.  

To the rest of us it seems a simple thing - you inscribe certain runes on something, possibly with exact (and exacting) requirements, and something answers.  Maybe it's the runes themselves, maybe something attuned to the runes, maybe it's a prayer to whatever god your civ has (I would like to note here that "A god did it!" has been a perfectly valid excuse for any amount of supernatural hoodoo since the dawn of time).  It doesn't really matter to the player, just like it doesn't matter how a lever can lower a floodgate halfway across the fort with nothing in between but solid rock.

To quote Sam Vimes,
 

quote:And that's why I don't like magic, Captain. 'cos it's magic.  You can't ask questions, it's magic.  It doesn't explain anything, it's magic.  You don't know where it comes from, it's magic!  That's what I don't like about magic, it does everything by magic!

But you're right in one thing, I have not said much to directly attack your own suggestion.  As I said, doing so was not my intention.  But if you insist on there being a perfect and fitting explanation for any magical system, allow me to point out that Toady has already implemented a way to do every single thing you claim to want without any need for gems or elements or collecting 'em all: extracts.  Pull out some fire imp guts, smear it on a blade, bam!  Sword of +2 burnination, no need for gems and souls and more random disasters and oh my god it needs to break free sometimes that would be so cool you guys and we should tame them and have pet fire imps on leashes.  Ahem.

 

quote:the reason why adding something like Runic magic, or any OTHER kind of magic into a game of this nature is a problem, is because it's dangerous to gameplay. If you put the wrong things into a game, in the wrong ways, and don't take the time to think long and hard about what they could be used for, from beginning to end, then sooner or later those things are going to be exploited and abused, which is going to result in bugs, cheating, balancing issues, and every other kind of badness, and which in turn is going to erode the game's fanbase.

If you will forgive a break from my usually calm demeanor, I have a special slice of nerdrage pie that I reserve for people who make this argument.  It's a fairly common thing for your average self-important nerd - I've seen it any every game community - to claim to have the community's pulse under your finger.  "If you don't implement my suggestion, all hell's going to break loose!  People are going to leave!  Newbies will cheat, and not wash their hands after going to the bathroom!  Dogs will lie down with cats!  It'll be madness!  MADNESS!"

Let us be clear on this.  This is a game where carp are demonic killing machines.   Where a spinning wad of vomit can decapitate a giant.  Where, with just a short time alone with a target, a marksdwarf can rival an m60 for raw firepower.  Where you can already download tools to change damn near any value you want on the fly.  Even if Toady implements planet busting Dragonball Z kamehameha fireballs, the game and its community will not be significantly affected.  

The sooner you realize that you have no personal responsibility or indeed capability of altering the game in any fashion, the sooner you will understand that Suggestions forums, here or elsewhere, are the red light districts of internet messageboards.  They exist only as a place for the community to collectively deposit its creativity and gripes, and to keep the other forums relatively free of the same.  That Toady occasionally reads these threads is by far the exception to the rule.  Even so, there is absolutely nothing at all that hinges on the outcome of this discussion.  So don't get too worked up about it, yeah?  It's only the internets.

Wow, that was a long post.  Sorry guys.  Hope you had half as much fun reading it as I did writing it.

[ February 17, 2008: Message edited by: InquisitiveIdiot ]

[Fenrir]

Maybe dwarfs ought to employ a sort of geomancy. Spells are created by arranging certain things a certain way. Different spell components are built in the correct pattern to achieve something. More powerful spells might require a great deal of space, perhaps spanning the entire fortress! The fortress design might effect how spells are cast, sort of like how temple architecture varies with the worshipped diety, only in reverse.
Of course, we'd have the basic layout elements of the spell, and we'd put them together to make our own spells.