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[Inquisitor Saturn]

Just like the Runepriests from Warhammer.

[Kagus]

Hey, I like runes.  Dwarves are perfect for runes, they can tie rune-inscribed chunks of rock into their beards for extra strength during battle.

Engrave runes into walls for interesting trap setups or perhaps small bonuses to nearby dwarves.  Of course, we'll need some Dwarven geomancers to pick up nearby pebbles and boulders with their mind and fling them at goblins or somesuch.

[Earthquake Damage]

Runes are a fair idea, though it'd be nice to give them a twist.  Perhaps they're mostly religious, with no actual effect.  Masterwork runes could occasionally carry some magical effect, but not because they're runes.  I'm thinking something like spirit possessions leading to artifacts (presumably, in future versions) imbued with magic, only far less spectacular.

Elements?  Not so good.  Elemental magic is so common in fantasy it's no longer interesting (in much the same way fireball-slinging is uninteresting).

[Kagus]

Depends on the fireball.

But yeah, I agree.  Although a certain amount of magic would be nice, having it pervade every aspect of the game is a bit excessive.  Runes with any real power (aside from perhaps morale boosts) would have to be, like you said, either masterpiece engravings, artifact items, or perhaps just made by a skilled runecrafter from some rare material.

For now, I'm perfectly happy with our mundane dwarves.  Although it would be nice if we could get dwarven mechanics to build big contraptions for...  stuff.

[John Johnston]

quote:Originally posted by Fenrir:
<STRONG>[HISTORICAL_ACCURACY_NAZI]I assume your being sarcastic. It is fitting. Dwarfs are from Viking myth. The Vikings used runes to cast spells.[/HISTORICAL_ACCURACY_NAZI] (Well, wannabe historical accuracy nazi, anyway.)</STRONG>

I don't think ze was being sarcastic, it seemed like a perfectly straight comment to me: dwarfs + runes is traditional.  That doesn't necessarily make it desirable of course! (although personally I think runic magic in DF would be cool)

quote:Originally posted by Guy:<STRONG>Maybe dwarven magic can be like in Michael Scott Rohan's The Anvil of Ice, where magical metal smiths can work powers and charms into the items they forge. It's been a while since I've read that book, so I am lacking some details. </STRONG>

Seconded, I love the smithcraft-magic in those books (and the whole Finnish mythology vibe), it would go very well with the DF setting methinks.  There are a couple of other threads somewhere devoted to discussing the plausibility of Elof's hammer.  

[Mikademus]

The most natural for of magic for dwarves would be runic. However,Runes should be an ordinary skill, perhaps necessary for bookkeeping. To make this skill magical and challenging it should be coupled with the engraving skill and a new artificer skill. Thus, any crafter with skills in Runic, Engraving and Artificing could work powers into objects, objects that become artefacts and have powers determined by materials, skill level, runic composition, and chance.

Runic skill would be a great interactive skill, that, as said, couples with Bookkeeping, with Engraving (libraries engraved with runes could improve teaching and learning), with Artificing (for magical artefacts), with any skill to produce Tomes (that may improve or the skill of or impart it to the reader) etc etc. Also, as discussed in the thread on Philosophy, Philosophy would interact with Magic and Alchemy (and other skills?) for improving change of certain outcomes or researching/developing new magic and formulas etc.

[ February 14, 2008: Message edited by: Mikademus ]

[NahNahNahNah_SLUGMAN]

quote:Originally posted by Mikademus:
<STRONG>The most natural for of magic for dwarves would be runic. However,Runes should be an ordinary skill, perhaps necessary for bookkeeping. To make this skill magical and challenging it should be coupled with the engraving skill and a new artificer skill. Thus, any crafter with skills in Runic, Engraving and Artificing could work powers into objects, objects that become artefacts and have powers determined by materials, skill level, runic composition, and chance.

Runic skill would be a great interactive skill, that, as said, couples with Bookkeeping, with Engraving (libraries engraved with runes could improve teaching and learning), with Artificing (for magical artefacts), with any skill to produce Tomes (that may improve or the skill of or impart it to the reader) etc etc.</STRONG>

I rather like this idea. Maybe have the requirement that they must be legendary  (or some high skill level) in both skills before crafting to a) balance and delay runic craft and b) relay that it is a difficult task that only the dwarven elite may attempt. Either that or have a rune-crafter show up like the nobles at a certain population level.

If anyone ever read Death-Gate cycle, that is the way I always envisioned runes. Useful as singular runes, but powerful when combined with other runes. Runes chained in different ways produce different effects.

Another idea is that each rune must be found or researched. In addition, each rune requires powder from a certain stone/ore depending on what rune it is. Like fire would require bauxite, obsidian, or a red gem.

I can see why Toady isn't implementing this anytime soon. It could get complex rather quickly.

[ February 14, 2008: Message edited by: NahNahNahNah_SLUGMAN ]

[Mikademus]

quote:Originally posted by NahNahNahNah_SLUGMAN:
<STRONG>[an] idea is that each rune must be found or researched. ... I can see why Toady isn't implementing this anytime soon. It could get complex rather quickly.</STRONG>

One elegant solution could be that artificers can be set to spend a certain amount of their time "musing on tne nature of things". Then they would study blocks of different materials and "gain insight" (runes) which could be employed when artificing. Musing could be more efficient by having the Philosophy skill.

This would make researching much less complex, not require player interaction and make it appear to be up to the individual dwarf.

[edit]As a by-though to this, perhaps more skills could benefit by "musing". Say the combination of Alchemy and Herbalism would produce potions. It also has the benefit of (1) good, sold, convincing and natural interaction between skills, especially ones atm of less use; and (2), encourage specialisation of your dwarves' skill sets since you can't control what they are musing over (thus, if a dwarf has both Herbalism and Artificing then he might muse over both plants and ore, making each less efficient). It also would make Alchemy to Herbalism as Artificing would be to, say, Masonry or Weaponsmithing.

[ February 14, 2008: Message edited by: Mikademus ]

[Boksi]

quote:Originally posted by Fenrir:
<STRONG>[HISTORICAL_ACCURACY_NAZI]I assume your being sarcastic. It is fitting. Dwarfs are from Viking myth. The Vikings used runes to cast spells.[/HISTORICAL_ACCURACY_NAZI] (Well, wannabe historical accuracy nazi, anyway.)</STRONG>

I wasn't being sarcastic D:
I don't blame you, though. The internet isn't a good way to convey sarcasm.

I really believe runes are fitting. But so are other things; we don' necessarily want only one kind of magick set in stone, pun intended. I really like a lot of the suggestions I've read here.

Furthermore, I think I know a little bit of the history of my own ancestors, thank you very much. Oh, and try not to take offense to the previous sentence, I couldn't get it to sound nicer.

[Fenrir]

quote:Originally posted by Boksi:
<STRONG>I wasn't being sarcastic D:
I don't blame you, though. The internet isn't a good way to convey sarcasm.

I really believe runes are fitting. But so are other things; we don' necessarily want only one kind of magick set in stone, pun intended. I really like a lot of the suggestions I've read here.

Furthermore, I think I know a little bit of the history of my own ancestors, thank you very much. Oh, and try not to take offense to the previous sentence, I couldn't get it to sound nicer.</STRONG>

I'm sorry. Yesterday just wasn't my day. I was just a stupid remark waiting to happen.

[sorbius]

I think that magic forging is fine, potion making etc.  but I really don't want a bunch of wizards running around in my DF. I don't think dwarves would want anything to do with any magic that didn't involve making something.

While the game takes place in a fantasy world with monsters and elves and such everything seems to be bound to the laws of physics (such as they are in DF) and I like the idea of a realistic (such as it is in DF) set of rules and limitations in a completely fantasy setting.

[MickEfinn]

http://www.warhammeronline.com/english/gameInfo/armiesofWAR/Dwarfs/Careers/Runepriest .php

This quote best describes my thoughts on the matter:

 

quote:“This is the las’ time I’m goin’ to say this – runes are NO’ magic! Magic is fer silly buggers in robes and poin’y ‘ats! Do you see a poin’y ‘at on me lad?”
– Grumhilde, Venerable Rune Sage

Engraver + Priesthood = Rune Sage!

Of course, you'd need an Alchemist's Lab and some Megabeast bits juiced down to make the runic inscripting ink, but I think it'll eventually come into being...

Though I bet the runes will either be inscriptions of cheese, or of something striking down a dwarf, if my engravings are any indication of the matter.

[ February 14, 2008: Message edited by: MickEfinn ]

[Mikademus]

quote:Originally posted by sorbius:
<STRONG>I think that magic forging is fine, potion making etc.  but I really don't want a bunch of wizards running around in my DF. I don't think dwarves would want anything to do with any magic that didn't involve making something.</STRONG>

That's the nice thing about the runes/engraving/artificing idea. It is more concrete, tangible, laborious --in short dwarfen-- way of magic.

Since the game is Dwarf Fortress, and since the game seems to be advancing at a fairly piecemeal pace, I'd say this is probably the way to go for several reasons:
1) It fits the conception of Dwarves
2) If fits snugly with the current game system and model
3) It will not drastically affect or change the game play model since what is added is more characteristic items, not wide-area Meteor Storm or Armageddon spells.
4) It will fluently and elegantly tie in with other additions to the game: potions, reading, learning, religion.
5) As was mentioned above about limiting the expression of magig in DT, there's nothing saying other means or modes of magic won't be incorporated in a later module/arc/whuznot, but it is more reasonable to stick with what's True Dwarf before minding those pesky, fragile Tall-Sticks prance about with.

[Zonk]

I like the general idea of a skill and gem-based magic system, and I also think that, with some variations, it might also be used for other entities eventually - for example, tribal humans might have a Shaman which would use animal body parts and plants instead of gems. While the game is dwarf-centered now, don't forget there's plans to eventually allow a "Wizard Tower"mode.
Of course, magic is something that will be implemented..much later in the game.
I'm not a fan of wizards throwing fireball and lightning bolts, I prefer a sword and sorcery style, which this magic system might fit well with.
However, I have one small nitpick:
rather than just imbuing gemstones, why not allow the player to    "distill"elemental energy at the workshop to create already imbued gemstones?
Like, a "pure fire gem"or something.
This would of corse require a lot of time, much more than simply using captured elementals, but it would mean you would be able to use this magic on gem-less maps.
Also, you would have to be in the appropriate setting.

essence:                distilled how/where:

fire                    must create a big fire near the workshop
darkness                must have the workshop deep underground in total ground
salt                    workshop must have saltwater around it.
ice                     workshop must be surrounded by glacier squares
water                   a lot(70?) units of water will get you a gem
lightning               must be on a stormy maps
air                     workshop must be located very high above the ground
death                   workshop must be near rotting corpses/tombs
miasma                  workshop must be surrounded by miasma

and so on...

Also, I think some gems might have more specific effects when used in specific items. For example, a TIME gem set in a bed might make the user of the bed sleep "faster", that is, he would sleep for less time than normal. You could also use a LIFE gem in the bed, which would allow to heal faster and also possibly heal "nervous"wounds, like the spine. Putting a FEAR gem in a totem or something on the gates of your fort might scare enemies away..

[Keilden]

Whatever kind of magic system DF must have a misscast system like in Warhammer