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Author Topic: Balance Issues  (Read 1846 times)

SimRobert2001

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Balance Issues
« on: December 24, 2008, 05:52:26 am »

Here are a few suggestions for balancing the game a little.  I have come up with these with these while playing, and i hope that these are useful. though, they ARE up for debate. I'm going to include links to the wiki as well.

Quarry Bushes: http://www.dwarffortresswiki.net/index.php/Quarry_bush
Quarry bushes are the single most productive plant in the game.  Processing one bush can give up to five leaves. 2 leaves are able to become an easy meal, 3 leaves are able to become a fine meal, and 4 will become a lavish meal. A single dwarf that plants 20 rock nuts, something easily doable even at start when the farmer is often the cook, will yield over 100 leaves. (20 x 5 leaves each). This will yield 50 easy meals, 33 fine meals (with one leaf left over) or 25 lavish meals. Its turn that this is offset by the fact that we must process the leaves to a bag, but once the leaves are cooked, the bag is free again, so even at start, we are able to make a massive amount of food. Once the fort gets its own cook, there is really no reason to grow anything else. (except stuff for alcohol) Now, i am under the impression that all other food is a 1:1 ratio. I understand that we need to have a variety of food, but there's nothing a grand food hall cant' cure. SO, to preserve the Quarry bush's unique properties, i would suggest that the Quarry bush be changed to produce 2 leaves, in addition to more severe penalties due to the "same food" bad thought. Maybe its bland taste could require that it be placed with a different food item? This way, we are unable to grow simply quarry bushes for an entire fortress.

Elves: Really, they are quite useless. always bringing the same thing over and over.  However, combined with the Giant Cave Spider products (see below) I am able to buy enough cloth to last an entire year. Recently, after only a single ambush, i was able to buy enough rope reed cloth to last my dwarves an entire year. Why would i need to grow pig tail plants if i could simply trade for all that i need? I COULD simply ignore pig tail plants all together, making them worthless. IF i were to plant them, I suddenly have the ability to make 3 times as much clothing. Of course, if I don't grow them, i suddenly find that my planter and my food operators no longer have to worry about processing all of those semi-worthless pig tails, and concentrate on the MUCH more valuable food stuffs.  I have all the rope reed cloth i need for bags. However, if the elves were to bring, say, more animals, then I have to suddenly worry about 1) the 3 bins of cloth is only enough for a single season of bags. 2) Since i don't' have enough pigtails, i need to grow some. 

#1 only has one solution: I need to grow some pigtails. However, my farmer must spend time planting the pigtails seeds, and won't plant anything else as he's (or she) is planting pigtail seeds. Therefore, i must plan ahead of time to deal with that shortage. OF course, i could always reuse the same bags, but that is assuming that i don't' need bags for sand. This means that my dwarves are forced to work at a constant quick pace, or i have a massive storage area. This might mean that i have to use say, my mechanic as a cook just to use all the food I can because i don't' have enough storage area. OF course, this only affects those of us who play microforts, but its still something to think about. 

Now, the elves could bring more animals, which would help me build a fancy zoo, or butcher for more labor-intensive dinners, but the cost could be through the roof. a tamed alligator, for example, may cost 500 Dwarf bucks, while a jaguar would cost 1,000. Animals could be used for a zoo, or as a fancy pet for nobles.  pets could come in tame and untamed versions, with the tame jaguar costing 3,000 dwarf bucks, and the wild jaguar costing 1,000? the tamed jaguar could be a fancy pet, or a fortress guard, while the wild one is good for only the zoo. This would be a further cash sink for those of us who don't' trade with the elves as they are now. In addition, none of us REALLY follow the elves's requirements for trees. SO, what if they were to offer a discount? say, 25% off for following their orders? This way, we are simply offered an additional challenge with an actual reward rather than letting the elves give another useless order?

Giant Cave Spider Stuff: all right, i know this has been mentioned before, but GCS stuff seems to be VERY overpriced. As i stated above, i was able to buy out the elves's caravan with only the use of the GCS stuff i got in a single raid. each of it was over 600 Dwarf bucks each, an a few were at 700.  If we were to dye them, there's a nice boost to that as well.
http://www.dwarffortresswiki.net/index.php/Dyer
I know its supposed ot be rare, but buying out platinum ore with a single vest seems SLIGHTLY over balanced. therefore, i propose that the price get cut in half, if not more.  300 dwarfbucks is still something to cheer about, but is not so powerful as to be able to buy out entire caravans with only a few raiding parties.

Looting price: Late in the game, we are actually able to support ourselves with only the loot dropped from sieges and ambushes. However, something didn't' sit right with me. the shirt the goblin is wearing has been stabbed, shot at, and soaked in blood. would you REALLY pay the full amount for something that is stained in goblin's blood, and has a massive hole through the chest? of course not. I Would suggest adding negative multipliers to an item of clothing for each hit. say, 5% of the value is taken off of plate armor for each hit a goblin takes, while clothing takes a 10% hit. blood stains might take another 5% value away, while vomit takes an addition 5% off. Clothing that is sufficiently destroyed will simply be known as "cloth" since it is still able to be used for the production of another item. A piece of armor would never withstand a ballista shot, so it would only be able to count as "ore." This way, we are never able to get the full value of something that we got from a raid, and we are forced to maintain a steady production industry even late in the game.

Traps: I know this one has been debated over and over, and they do seem rather over powered. they're also a bit silly: how can 10 enormous steel corkscrews, popping up out of the ground presumably, fit into the same space, using the same mechanism, when they are clearly 1X2? 10 spears might be able to do it, but never 10 giant axe heads.  I suggest that each trap is given a specific amount of space to work with, depending on where it is located. a trap on flat ground is given 5 units of space to work with, while one on along a wall is given 10 units of space, and one on two walls is given 15, and one with 3 walls is given 15. this way, we can imagine traps coming out of the walls, in addition to the ceiling.   A mechanism would be required for each 5 units of space, since a mechanism in the floor cannot operate something in the wall, or the ceiling, in addition to one for each item in the trap itself. one mechanism serves the trigger, one transfers THAT motion to the floor/ceiling, while the other mechanism   So, the formula would be the following 1 + (amount of space/5) + amount of items. Giant axe heads and enormous corkscrews would require 5 units of space, spears, serrated edges,  and spiked balls, swords (ect) and crossbows would require 2 units of space. Bows would no longer be required, We could also require that traps in the middle of a floor be connected to a trap located by a wall, or limited to 5 units of space, since there is no place to hide a mechanism connecting the ceiling.

Goblets and flasks: These may seem like a minor issue, but for each unit of ore used on one of these projects, 3 units are created instead of 1, like say, toys. They are also the same value as everything else. So, that aluminum toy, which took 1 bar to create, is worth the 300 dwarf bucks. Those 3 flasks that also took 1 bar to create are also worth 300 each, for a combined value of 900.  This seems to be a bit of an oversight that has one of 2 corrections, reduce the value of flasks and goblets by a third, or increase the amount of toys, crafts, and instruments produced. Preferably, I would like to see the second option since this big massive bar has been melted down to produce a dinky little toy, when it seems like it would actually make 2, or even 3 of them.  Since we are making 3 the flasks and 3 goblets for the same value of a single toy, we could slice the value by a third, so the value of the 3 combined will equal a single toy, so it really wouldn't matter what we make. As it is, we can make more money by making only flasks and goblets, which doesn't seem to be intended.

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LegacyCWAL

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Re: Balance Issues
« Reply #1 on: December 24, 2008, 05:13:21 pm »

*Quarry bush stuff*

Now, i am under the impression that all other food is a 1:1 ratio.

*More quarry bush stuff*

Just an FYI:

Sweet Pods can be processed into Dwarven Syrup, which is also at a 5:1 ratio.  Additionally, currently anything that can be brewed can turn into a 5:1 ratio by cooking the booze (although many consider this to be an exploit).
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CobaltKobold

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Re: Balance Issues
« Reply #2 on: December 24, 2008, 05:16:17 pm »

I read elsewhere- toys and crafts CAN make up to 3 per input, just not off an untrained dabbler- more are likely with higher skill. Supposedly.
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Neonivek

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Re: Balance Issues
« Reply #3 on: December 24, 2008, 05:22:13 pm »

Why are people complaining that plants give a lot more food then the seeds it comes from?

Isn't that how things work in real life?

The balance I think comes from making food actually need to fill dwarves up, and keep them healthy, as well as how long the food in general lasts. As well as considerations to how easy or difficult the thing is to grow (Brocoli was once VERY popular because of how difficult it was to grow. Since people in general grew much of the food they ate, bringing someone over to a meal in which you served Brocoli was in many senses of the word "Showing off"... Or was it the White Brocoli? Ohh well you know what I mean)

The fact that the Quarry bush grows EVERYWHERE!!! is a problem to me.

Ill comment on elves later.
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LegoLord

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Re: Balance Issues
« Reply #4 on: December 24, 2008, 05:41:28 pm »

Rather than make GCS silk less valuable (do you know how hard it is to harvest that stuff from a GCS?), why not add a rarity value to creatures with extracts?  The higher the number, the less likely it is for a dude to show up wearing it.
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BurnedToast

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Re: Balance Issues
« Reply #5 on: December 24, 2008, 05:46:32 pm »

Toys and Musical instruments always come out 1 at a time. Crafts come out 1 - 3 at a time, randomly, not based on skill at all (afaik). Mugs and Flasks come out 3 at a time all the time. Yes this is a balance issue, but I think Toady is waiting for the caravan arc to fix things like this related to trade goods.

As far as sweet pods/quarry bushes consider this: Plump Helmets take a single job to be edible, and produce 1x the food. pods/bushes take 3x the jobs (plant, process, cook) and produce 5x the food, which seems a fair increase in efficiency for using 'advanced' food and 3 separate skills rather then the basics. furthermore plump helmets grow 40% faster which I think allows one more planting per season making it even more balanced. The real problem is that farming in general is just far, far too easy not that sweet pods/quarry bushes are too good.
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CobaltKobold

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Re: Balance Issues
« Reply #6 on: December 24, 2008, 05:53:35 pm »

Oh, and your example assumed that the farmer got 1 plant per seed, where you can get anywhere up to 11 if you fully fertilize a field, have legendary farmer, and roll high.
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SirHoneyBadger

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Re: Balance Issues
« Reply #7 on: December 24, 2008, 06:29:15 pm »

I planted a garden last year, and some of my plants did really well, but others didn't, even though the soil was fresh and I watered them regularly. In part it was because it was a very cold winter, followed by a very dry summer.

This year, I did a lot to make the ground better for specific plants (turns out, zucchini requires calcium to grow right), and in general, improved the soil.
I didn't have many problems with disease, but insects were a *huge* problem, until I found an insecticide that worked well.

I think plants will become a lot more balanced in the future. When fertilizer is in, and when Toady has the time to write an algorhythm for plant growth, then we may see a given quarry bush *not* produce, produce only 1 leaf a year, or up to 5 at a time. Harvesting the plants themselves may also damage them, if you take the maximum harvest, so you'd have to weigh that.

Vermin control might become a big issue (making cats more important), and we might even see some natural insecticide (like boiling tobacco, or salt for snails and slugs) in the game.

Plant genetics might be considerably more palatable to have in the game, than modeling genetic factors of sentient beings, so it may become possible to breed different/better types of plants over time.

And, ofcourse, if soil-tunneling becomes something your enemies can do, guarding your farm would become vital.
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SimRobert2001

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Re: Balance Issues
« Reply #8 on: December 25, 2008, 04:07:00 pm »

Toys and Musical instruments always come out 1 at a time. Crafts come out 1 - 3 at a time, randomly, not based on skill at all (afaik). Mugs and Flasks come out 3 at a time all the time. Yes this is a balance issue, but I think Toady is waiting for the caravan arc to fix things like this related to trade goods.



Perhaps thats true, though it really doenst' seem to be that much work to say "make this item worth 300 dwafbucks as a base cost" maybe thats just me, though. I dont' know how toady has his program build, but I assume its just a database.

I just through of somethign as well. we're able to get one bar from a single metal object, right? since we get 3 goblets from one metal bar, shouldn't we be able to get 3 steel bars from smelting those 3 goblets?
« Last Edit: December 25, 2008, 08:48:59 pm by SimRobert2001 »
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LegacyCWAL

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Re: Balance Issues
« Reply #9 on: December 25, 2008, 09:01:02 pm »

Melting a metal object returns ~30% of the metal used to make it.
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G-Flex

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Re: Balance Issues
« Reply #10 on: December 26, 2008, 12:35:16 am »

Dwarven syrup is far, far more broken than quarry bush leaves. They return the same amount, but at an absurd value. Just look up plants on the wiki; extracting syrup from sweet pods gives you a total value of 100, whereas other plants upon extraction/milling only give you 20-25.
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SimRobert2001

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Re: Balance Issues
« Reply #11 on: December 26, 2008, 01:39:25 am »

Dwarven syrup is far, far more broken than quarry bush leaves. They return the same amount, but at an absurd value. Just look up plants on the wiki; extracting syrup from sweet pods gives you a total value of 100, whereas other plants upon extraction/milling only give you 20-25.

really? i haven't been growing sweet pods. i get PLENTY for both food and trade from Quarry bushes.  Though, it definitly sounds like it needs fixed as well, and I would suggest just setting it the value at 20, and giving only 1.

Rather than make GCS silk less valuable (do you know how hard it is to harvest that stuff from a GCS?), why not add a rarity value to creatures with extracts?  The higher the number, the less likely it is for a dude to show up wearing it.

that may help, however that won't stop us from ordering 5 or 6 bins from a caravan. It just seems easier to lower the amount of money you get per item as a base.
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Neonivek

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Re: Balance Issues
« Reply #12 on: December 26, 2008, 01:44:20 am »

Alright I said I would respond... Ill focus entirely on counter-points for this post so don't take any lack of "Good ideas" as me thinking your not making any good points.

So let me see here

Elves and Rope Reed: The true issue is that Rope Reed is otherwise unneeded except to make more rope reed objects as nothing wears down over time (which will fix eventually). The Elves supplying it in large supply is to me not a large issue especially if climate requirements end up making their way into the game. Rope Reed is a very simple cloth object that is cheap enough for even your poor dwarves to afford them.

Elves and Animals: It to me should depend on how many spare animals they have. They don't need to be the Zoo. As for Tame and Untamed... taming animals is so simple to do as it is, I don't see it getting effectively a 2x cost especially since Tamed animals give birth to tame animals.

Elves and Trees: I think your treatment of trees is simply a diplomatic move. I guess they COULD give incentives... "Discounts" make little sense since as an economic move they are effectively providing a variable net loss. If they liked you more and thus were more willing to make less profit in their dealings with you (or more willing to try to extend better relationships by giving you fair prices) then that is good.

Giant Cave Spider: NO NO NO!!! Have you EVER fought one? They are rare enough and dangerous enough to more then justify their cost. The real problem is how overwhelmingly common it is without any explanation. Now I realise that Goblins have a lot of things that are an uttar mystery, but give us something! Have underground Giant Cave Spider Farms at the dark fortresses.

Goblin Armor: Woosh that isn't even scraping the surface... Being able to earn tons of money off dead soldiers isn't something to me that is unrealistic so I am glad you only suggested not being able to get full price for it.
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Traps: While I can see using walls as cover I doth protest giving wall traps an overwhelming advantage by determining what can and cannot be used for it. A better use is that Traps hidden in walls have better cover with more traps then just a floor...

Goblets and Toys: A better balance then price changing, though I am not opposed to adjustments, would be to alter needs according to the number of objects available. You made a thousand goblets? Well no one wants any anymore. An object shouldn't be defined only by its price and thus the need for objects to be individualised will grow.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2008, 01:55:59 am by Neonivek »
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Pilsu

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Re: Balance Issues
« Reply #13 on: December 26, 2008, 01:51:00 am »

Materials could simply have a luxury tag. Legendary goblins and nobles would show up wearing only good stuff
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JoshuaFH

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Re: Balance Issues
« Reply #14 on: December 26, 2008, 02:25:47 am »

I'm only gonna comment on the goblet/flask issue.

To the OP, I hate to say this, but your wrong. Your just plain wrong.

Metalcrafters, a job that does very little... VERY LITTLE... in fact, the only useful thing they can do is make goblets. If they couldn't do that, Blacksmiths and armorers would beat them out EVEN WORSE than they do now as far as usefulness to the fort is concerned. Allow me to elaborate:

goblets have an item value of 10 and three are made with each bar
Anvils & platemails have an item value of 100, and each requires three bars of metal to make

So if we take a three bars of iron, a very common metal with a material value of 10, and make 9 goblets out of them, at standard quality, would collectively be worth 900 dwarfins.

If we take those same three bars of iron and instead decide to make an anvil or a suit of platemail, we'll have an item worth 1000 dwarfins at standard quality.

You might argue "But Josh, you can make goblets out of valuable metals like Platinum that you can't make anvils or platemail out of", but that only cripples Metalcrafters even more, because the ore of said valuable metals is usually the same value as the metal itself, stonecrafters can make mugs out of that ore that are worth the same amount, and don't require a piece of fuel wasted or an extra step in the assembly line, ALL this put together with the fact that the rarity of these metals in comparison to iron, Blacksmiths, Armorers, and stonecrafters will forever and ever be better than Metalcrafters.

If you take away goblets, Metalcrafters are ANOTHER vestigial job, replaced completely by Blacksmiths, Armorers, and stonecrafters. So please, consider the poor metalcrafter, he doesn't have alot. He can make valueble mugs, thats all he can do, don't take that away from him.

And NOBODY better bring up studding, studding takes up a whole bar, and only produces a decoration with a base value of 10. pathetic.
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