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[Pilsu]

If tunneling becomes routine, then sieges will be utterly broken.

As opposed to X% of sieges being utterly broken and bypassing your entire fort effortlessly, paying no heed to what tunneling was actually used for

[Neonivek]

"As opposed to X% of sieges being utterly broken and bypassing your entire fort effortlessly"

Not Effortlessly... You really should deal with the enemies eventually.

How fun would the game be if they could never actually fight back?

Hmm I should get off the topic on "How to make Sieges effective" as that is another topic and this ones is about tunneling units.

[Tormy]

Should tunnelers get implemented, I want them to happen only once every dozen or so sieges, so that a player's reaction to them will be "HOLY SHIT!", not "Sigh, not again...".

I want a tunneling incident to be epic.


If tunneling becomes routine, then sieges will be utterly broken.

I think that tunneling in sieges should only happen, if the enemy has a siege camp nearby. [Check out my Siege Camps suggestion if you would like to know more infos about it..  ]
Just a note: Some creatures like giant worms [megabeast] should have a tunneler flag also. So even the megabeast attacks will be much more interesting. 

[Granite26]

An added "super restore" would be an occasional (yearly or seasonal, or even at save/reload) that "unreveals" tiles that are completely surrounded by rock or wall.

I like this a lot.  It helps out the dwarf pony fortress and beauty salon types without breaking game logic at all.

Might need to 'hide' the whole tunnel by just closing off the ends, though...

Also, if goblins have to shore up tunnels, maybe dwarves should too?

[Joakim]

Regarding tunneler-targeting.

What if a tunneler would need to know where something was in order to dig to it. The only thing a besieger will know for sure is where the entrance is. I'm not counting interrogating goblin snatchers that got away. I doubt they have a perfect 3d image of the fortress in their mind anyway. More like where traps are, etc. So in 99% of all cases, they'll simply try to dig into your gate a little from the side. If you combine it with some kind of do-not-dig-where-marksdwarfs-can-shoot-at-me and you'll have a pretty good start.

One way to prevent this is to give your dwarves a 360 degrees line of fire, i.e. a tower. But a tower can be catapulted... Other solutions include steel-lining the entrance, which is more possible now when they simple won't magically target your  bedrooms 10 z-levels down.

[LegacyCWAL]

I think that tunneling in sieges should only happen, if the enemy has a siege camp nearby. [Check out my Siege Camps suggestion if you would like to know more infos about it..  ]

That Siege Camps suggestion could help, but only if it's in conjunction with some way of making a fortress less self-sufficient when completely contained.  As it is right now, if it's possible to wait goblins out, then you can just ignore the goblins the same way you can now.  It'll just take longer.

[Pilsu]

As it is right now, if it's possible to wait goblins out, then you can just ignore the goblins the same way you can now.  It'll just take longer.

Do you even know what a siege is?

[LegacyCWAL]

As it is right now, if it's possible to wait goblins out, then you can just ignore the goblins the same way you can now.  It'll just take longer.

Do you even know what a siege is?

Yes, I do.  However, in a "real" siege, it was theoretically possible for the attackers to outlast the defenders.  In DF, not so much.

[Granite26]

As it is right now, if it's possible to wait goblins out, then you can just ignore the goblins the same way you can now.  It'll just take longer.

Do you even know what a siege is?

Yes, I do.  However, in a "real" siege, it was theoretically possible for the attackers to outlast the defenders.  In DF, not so much.

Cause it's easy to farm completely indoors on 10-20 squares and brew drinking ale from thin air.

Unlike the past where the castle could grow enough food to feed maybe 4 people indefinitely, and had a single well for hundres of people to drink.

[mickel]

I'm not sure if it's been suggested before but having hitpoints and resistances added to building materials might help make this work. The game currently needlessly differentiates between a lot of types of rocks that are all just the same. The first time I saw the types of rocks were named, I assumed it was because they had different properties such as hardness, and that you correspondingly could mine out larger rooms in harder rocks without them collapsing, and that a copper pick wouldn't be able to get far through some rocks, for example.

If that actually went in, you could coat your precious fortress walls with steel and see the pitiful goblins fail to even dent them with their copper picks. Or you could watch them slowly, slowly buckling under their painfully drawn out attack, while you set up a reception party on the inside.

I'm for sapping due to two main reasons. The first is that if I can do it to them, they should be able to do it to me (modified by levels of expertise, quality of equipment etc.). Anything else is unfair. The second is that it's an ages-old military tactic that has been in use for as long as humanity has used fortresses. It doesn't make sense that it wouldn't be possible in the game.

[Mel_Vixen]

Mickel in the next release they have different propertys

[mickel]

Mickel in the next release they have different propertys

Sweet. Another thing I've been waiting for since the first 3d version ticked off the list. Thank you, Toady. 

[Mephansteras]

Yeah, I'm looking forward to Diorite being much more useful. Ultimately, it should be hard to mine (and tunnel into) but make for more valuable goods.

From wikipedia:

Diorite is an extremely hard rock, making it difficult to carve and work with. It is so hard that ancient civilizations (such as Ancient Egypt) used diorite balls to work granite. Its hardness, however, also allows it to be worked finely and take a high polish, and to provide a durable finished work. Thus, major works in diorite tend to be important.

One comparatively frequent use of diorite was for inscription, as it is easier to carve in relief than in three-dimensional statuary. Perhaps the most famous diorite work extant is the Code of Hammurabi, inscribed upon a 2 metre (7 ft) pillar of black diorite. The original can be seen today in Paris' Musée de Louvre[2]. A few large statues remain, including several statues of King Khafre in the Egyptian Museum. The use of diorite in art was most important among very early Middle Eastern civilizations such as Ancient Egypt, Babylonia, Assyria and Sumer. It was so valued in early times that the first great Mesopotamian empire -- the Empire of Sargon of Akkad -- listed the taking of diorite as a purpose of military expeditions.

Although one can find diorite art from later periods, it became more popular as a structural stone and was frequently used as pavement due to its durability. Diorite was used by both the Inca and Mayan civilizations, but mostly for fortress walls, weaponry, etc. It was especially popular with medieval Islamic builders. In later times, diorite was commonly used as cobblestone; today many diorite cobblestone streets can be found in England, Guernsey and Scotland, and scattered throughout the world in such places as Ecuador and China. Although diorite is rough-textured in nature, its ability to take a polish can be seen in the diorite steps of St. Paul's Cathedral, London, where centuries of foot traffic have polished the steps to a sheen.

[mickel]

The first dwarf had dug his fortress out of pumice. Then the big bad goblin came and said "little dwarf, little dwarf, let me in"...

[LegoLord]

Strictly speaking, we can't sap goblin towers.  We settle on them and make poor housing plans.

Anyway, what we really need to talk about at this point is how much we, as a whole want tunneling (compared to other siege fixes and additions).

Also, all we need to make farming more realistic is a crude imitation of thermodynamics.  In other words, needing to irrigate a farm regularly rather than just once, and make it so that certain foods give dwarves less "energy."  Wheat, for example;  only the head of a stalk of wheat is actually used, and that's a pretty small part.  Hence a need for more land to feed dwarves on wheat than for feeding them on, say, plump helmets, which have far more usable parts per square meter of farmland (plump helmets are mushrooms).