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[mickel]

Every now and then, yeah.  I think the Viet Cong did that during the Vietnam War.  WWI also saw extensive use of underground burrows to keep troops safe from the ridiculous amount of artillery that the two sides threw around, though those weren't below enemy lines.

...though I doubt anyone who lived in them would have called them cozy. Of course, everything is relative so I guess they were cozy... under the circumstances.

On the topic of WW1, the British mines under the Messines Ridge during the battle of Passchendaele was a sapping act of almost dwarf proportions. Well, provided dwarfs had access to explosives...

When the dwarfs do get explosives more potent and stable than their booze, we'll see the world map rewritten several times over and over during wars.

Me, I want to see goblins use that against the dwarfs.

Urist McUseless cancels tantrum: Blown to Armok knows where.

 

[SirHoneyBadger]

Comments aside, I'd like to point out that I think it's more than slightly odd how-despite the large and very steady gap between *For* and *Against*-every single time the *For* vote goes up, the *Against* vote goes up, correspondingly.

Usually within a *very* short amount of time.

I've been following this closely and constantly for ateast 2-3 weeks now, and it keeps happening.

How does that work, exactly?

[Tormy]

It was used to topple the walls.

It was used for that, but NOT only for that.

"Tunneling was a siege method used in ancient China from at least the Warring States (481–221 BC) period forward. When enemies attempted to dig tunnels under walls for mining or entry into the city, the defenders used large bellows (the type the Chinese commonly used in heating up the blast furnace for smelting cast iron) to pump smoke into the tunnels in order to suffocate the intruders."

[Neonivek]

Even if Plisu was correct we are working within a Dramatic/epic and magical world. meaning that we got reliable and powerful diggers.

Making tunnels as tunnels more then an effective strategy.

We need to remember that Dwarf Fortress isn't a game grounded in only reality. It is also grounded in myth and fantasy.

Dwarf Fortress is a world if Dramatic Mythology, High-Fantasy, and reality could exist in one universe.

[jaked122]

in nethack I've been slaughtered by rock moles  that's not something I want in Dwarf Fortress

[Pilsu]

"Tunneling was a siege method used in ancient China from at least the Warring States (481–221 BC) period forward. When enemies attempted to dig tunnels under walls for mining or entry into the city, the defenders used large bellows (the type the Chinese commonly used in heating up the blast furnace for smelting cast iron) to pump smoke into the tunnels in order to suffocate the intruders."

Attacking a fortress from a 2 feet wide tunnel? Really now?

Dwarf Fortress is a world if Dramatic Mythology, High-Fantasy, and reality could exist in one universe.

The game as you see it doesn't really support that claim

[Login]

No, because it will mean I have to design my forts with two moats. One with water and one with lava. If they break the first wall they will drown. And if they survive this they will build my new obsidian wall. Water plus lava is Obsidian. I think it should be possible to build a 'free floating fortess'. Suspended in a lava and a water layer. Only as a last resort                  in              W=water L=lava
                                                              |W|LLLLLL|  |LLLL|W|
                                                              |W|L|---------|L|W|
                                                              |W|L| fortress |L|W|
                                                              |W|L|---------|L|W|
                                                              |W|LLLLLLLLLLLLL|W|
                                                              |W|-------------|W|
                                                              |WWWWWWWWWW|

[Footkerchief]

"Tunneling was a siege method used in ancient China from at least the Warring States (481–221 BC) period forward. When enemies attempted to dig tunnels under walls for mining or entry into the city, the defenders used large bellows (the type the Chinese commonly used in heating up the blast furnace for smelting cast iron) to pump smoke into the tunnels in order to suffocate the intruders."

Attacking a fortress from a 2 feet wide tunnel? Really now?

You find the weirdest boxes to think inside of.  No, you don't try to fight a pitched battle from the tunnel exit, that would be dumb.  You break the surface in the middle of the night and quietly assemble an elite squad inside the fortress before attacking, or maybe just send an infiltrator to the gatehouse.

It's not qualitatively different from the Trojan Horse -- if Odysseus & Co. had tried to make their exit while the horse was surrounded by Trojans, they'd be slaughtered.

[Neonivek]

"The game as you see it doesn't really support that claim"

Your too stuck on the game as it is.

The Raws, Devs, and Toady support my claim strongly.

Though I think it could make a good discussion... but it would probably just lead to a flame war.

Person 1: "Toady is going to add magic!"
Person 2: "No Toady is not it is too unrealistic"
Person 1: "It is in the Devs"
Person 2: "It isn't in the game"
FLAME WAR!!!

[Pilsu]

You find the weirdest boxes to think inside of.  No, you don't try to fight a pitched battle from the tunnel exit, that would be dumb.  You break the surface in the middle of the night and quietly assemble an elite squad inside the fortress before attacking, or maybe just send an infiltrator to the gatehouse.

It's not qualitatively different from the Trojan Horse -- if Odysseus & Co. had tried to make their exit while the horse was surrounded by Trojans, they'd be slaughtered.

Much like they covertly collapsed the walls. Except your camp already proved they could be heard coming from far enough to even get them under the wall covertly, let alone into the fort itself. And now they just sort of do it covertly at night. Right

Trojan horse is just another legend. Might as well believe in the golden fleece

Person 1: *Makes a sweeping generalization about the setting based on very little*
Person 2: "No."
Person 1: "It is in the Devs"
Person 2: "Some kind of magic is in the devs. I'm not seeing anything about the adventures of Hercules who could shoot death rays out of his eyes and heal women with his plump helmet"
Person 1: "Well you're wrong!"

I really don't see why having single entities ala Wizards with magic and a few areas with wonky features somehow instantly translates to the game being a D&D clone with a million artifacts of hemorrhoid vanquishing and epic quests abound where every damn thing is magical. Especially when the current game just has a few patches of land with undead and more vanilla nasty critters and a few good spots with nasty critters and berries. Some really nasty critters hide in caves on occasion

[Footkerchief]

Much like they covertly collapsed the walls. Except your camp already proved they could be heard coming from far enough to even get them under the wall covertly, let alone into the fort itself. And now they just sort of do it covertly at night. Right

I can't parse your second sentence at all.  Anyway, again, you're thinking of this in an extremely closeminded way.  Some fortresses' walls enclose a large enough area that you could easily find a discreet, deserted area to surface -- it's not like you have to tunnel under the bedrooms and pop out in the barracks.

[mickel]

If you're sapping in order to place a mine, digging under the barracks may be exactly what you want, though. But then again, that implies mines, which implies practical explosives, which started a flame war of it's own the last time it was suggested. 

[Mephansteras]

Let's bring this discussion back slightly from the historical side of things. Yes, historically sappers were used. In some cases more successfully than others, but with limitations. However, no matter how realistic this game is we still have to take into account that it is a fantasy world with races that do a lot of work underground.

Given what's already in Dwarf fortress, I think we HAVE to assume that goblins have decent tunneling abilities. Maybe not to the level of dwarves, but they are the only other race to make tunnels between settlements during world gen. This implies that they are reasonably good at digging through rock. Therefore while tunneling might be slow, might be easy to spot, and might be easy for a well prepared fortress to stop, it should still exist.

Especially if the game eventually includes the ability to fight other dwarven civs (or revolt against your own). I think it is very reasonable to assume that they'd have a team of miners available to make their own way in. It'd be one of the big challenges about fighting another dwarven civ.

[mickel]

Indeed. Goblins and dwarves would be stupid not to use tunnelers, given that dwarves can mine through solid rock at a walking pace. Equip an entire squad with pickaxes, have them dig a tunnel eight dwarves wide. Given the speed they mine they'd breach the fortress before defenders would have time to respond, and bam!

It'd be an interesting challenge, and fun to defend against.

[SirHoneyBadger]

It'd be an interesting challenge, and fun to defend against.

Really, boiled down, this is the essence of the argument, it seems to me. Whether or not we ever get Tunneling, in whatever form, we've still got people/creatures/monsters/what have you, attacking our fortress. Sure, they do it by going through the air, or in some cases the water, but all Tunneling is is adding another medium through which they can attack you.

Noone's arguing against goblin seiges or random monster attacks, but Tunneling is really just more of the same. That means it's something we will be able to defend against.

I suspect that, when Tunneling gets put in, we'll see good defenses against Tunneling put in, also. We won't suddenly find ourselves naked and without recourse. There might be new traps, better squad control, all sorts of cool tools to play with, that come in with Tunneling, and that make the game (and our fortresses, themselves) more interesting.

And in the words of Urist McBadass: "Our homes are not defended by these stone walls alone, nor do we hide behind them. Our homes we protect by the weapons we wield with the strength in our arms, the will of our minds, and the power of our unmovable conviction. Our homes are defended not with cold stone, but with the hot life's-blood that pumps in the veins of every dwarf who lives here, from the first to the very last."