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[forsaken1111]

I don't really get how it's a "bad" game.

Slow and unbalanced to the point where any sort of challenge is circumvented to the point of sandboxyness?

Kind of like Minecraft then?

But Minecraft isn't that good anyway, it just has a very loud and exagerated community.

Agreed

[dragnar]

I beg to differ. I have spent more time playing Minecraft and Cortex Command than most commercial games. They are both extremely fun sandbox games. But if you don't like the sandbox... well, they're just not the games for you.

[Neonivek]

I beg to differ. I have spent more time playing Minecraft and Cortex Command than most commercial games. They are both extremely fun sandbox games. But if you don't like the sandbox... well, they're just not the games for you.

Time doesn't equal good and neither does having a Sandbox suddenly make a game very good.

A lot of what makes Minecraft good and fun isn't the qualities of the game itself but rather the creativity that players project onto it.

In otherwords Minecraft isn't a great game, it just has great players.

[forsaken1111]

I beg to differ. I have spent more time playing Minecraft and Cortex Command than most commercial games. They are both extremely fun sandbox games. But if you don't like the sandbox... well, they're just not the games for you.

No, I enjoy sandbox games. DF is a very well-done sandbox game. Compared to DF the number of possible things to do in minecraft is abysmal.

[Neonivek]

Well it isn't about the number of things people can do in minecraft.

Minecraft has two things
1) A simple creative potential
and
2) Grinding (Honestly, I may not like it, but I am starting to realise why Grinding is important)

That is what makes it so fun Forsaken.

That and it also has
3) The illusion of depth: Not an insult, just no polite term for it.

[fenrif]

I beg to differ. I have spent more time playing Minecraft and Cortex Command than most commercial games. They are both extremely fun sandbox games. But if you don't like the sandbox... well, they're just not the games for you.

Time doesn't equal good and neither does having a Sandbox suddenly make a game very good.

A lot of what makes Minecraft good and fun isn't the qualities of the game itself but rather the creativity that players project onto it.

In otherwords Minecraft isn't a great game, it just has great players.

So when I play the game by myself in single player, and it's good and fun, the game is still bad and it's only fun and good because of other players?

Well it isn't about the number of things people can do in minecraft.

Minecraft has two things
1) A simple creative potential
and
2) Grinding (Honestly, I may not like it, but I am starting to realise why Grinding is important)

3) exploration
4) survival
5) simplicity
6) Emergent gameplay.

It's very easy to break something you don't like down into just a few bad concepts and ignore all the things the vast majority of other people really enjoy about it... But it's also much easier to just say "I'm aware nearly everyone else really loves minecraft, but personally I don't like it" rather than try and convince people it's a bad game.

You're basically arguing that lego is a crap toy because all it has is blocks and the blocks by themselves are boring.

Also: there's really not much grinding in Minecraft. Unless you're building a 1:1 scale replica of the entireprise or just absolutely HATE exploring in even the tiniest bit I don't see how you're going to need to grind for anything. If you want to grind then I guess you could, but that's not the only way to play the game.

(for the record both cortex command and minecraft are both excellent games)

[forsaken1111]

The scale model of the enterprise was done by importing bitmaps of the plans actually, not by grinding. I don't see this emergent gameplay you're talking about, nor any sort of survival challenge. Build a 3 tile wall around yourself and you will survive in minecraft. Exploration? For what? Exploring to find new sources of coal and iron? You will never run across anything unexpected in minecraft once you have played one or two times. Its just more caves and hills and cliffs, sometimes covered in snow, sometimes floating for no reason. The modding community is the only thing that makes minecraft interesting.

[Sean Mirrsen]

No, Cortex Command is a decent game. Yeah, it pretty dumb at places, but all in all it usually just adds to the ridiculous fun. Oh, the humongous bunkers I've built... both above and below ground... Though they usually fall due to my own soldiers' ineptness, hehe. I came to realize it's best to leave the defenders OUT of your massive impenetrable fort, with only a select few in isolated rooms so you can take over them and fight back invaders.

Modding is a massive factor in that, of course. But even simple mods can make for VERY entertaining play sessions. Like making a custom skirmish scenario with ridiculous amounts of dropped troops, and making yourself a bunker map with several AI soldiers and lots of extra weapons. Then see how long you can hold out.

And then there was that time when I modified the Craftgun of RAWRELZ to fire Mk2 Rockets literally bursting with crabs... at about ten rounds per second... mayhem doesn't even begin to describe what happened when I braced against a tall wall and held down the trigger.

[dragnar]

I beg to differ. I have spent more time playing Minecraft and Cortex Command than most commercial games. They are both extremely fun sandbox games. But if you don't like the sandbox... well, they're just not the games for you.

Time doesn't equal good and neither does having a Sandbox suddenly make a game very good.

A lot of what makes Minecraft good and fun isn't the qualities of the game itself but rather the creativity that players project onto it.

In otherwords Minecraft isn't a great game, it just has great players.

No, time does not make a game good... But I have only PUT that time into them because I like the games. Personally I like minecraft more than DF, simply becasue I like doing things myself more than ordering the dwarves around.(That said, I am REALLY looking forward to the final adventure mode.) And as for the game only being good because of the players... while that is true of cortex command, Minecraft stands on it's own quite well. It isn't complicated, but it doesn't have to be. Simplicity can be great as well.

[Neonivek]

"So when I play the game by myself in single player, and it's good and fun, the game is still bad and it's only fun and good because of other players?"

It is complicated but suffice it to say, I've had a great time playing bad games before. Not that Minecraft is a bad game, just overrated.

I can seperate how much fun I have with the quality and quantity of the game I am playing.

For example I like Graffiti Kingdom, love its creation system, but I realise that it is a boring snoozefest otherwise. (the game is very easy)

In otherwords Minecraft is good for what it is.

(On a side note when I check reviews, ignoring that no beta or alpha should have reviews, the ratings are always incredably high)

"You're basically arguing that lego is a crap toy because all it has is blocks and the blocks by themselves are boring"

In WHAT world do you live in where Legos are fun in it of themselves with no input? What crazy world?

Also your putting words into my mouth, you will see more that I think Minecraft is "Overrated" then "bad". Where the qualities that the community say Minecraft has is more in the player then the game itself.

3) exploration
4) survival
5) simplicity
6) Emergent gameplay

Ok to deal with these

3 and 4 are not its possitive qualities YET. 5 and 6 are part of my first point.

Also since WHEN are the number of points I make an indication of how good or bad a game is? The point OF my original three points was that "Those" were its top qualities, what makes Minecraft Minecraft... it isn't trying to be anything else but when you get people who have a lot of fun with something you see other qualities emerge that weren't there in the first place.

I am actually getting quite annoyed at the gaming community at large. Every game someone loves HAS to secretly be the greatest game ever.

--------------------

As for Cortex Command which I havn't commented on except to possibly explain why someone wouldn't like it or why it wouldn't be great (Though many people have commented that it is pathetically easy to break the game before).

I have to agree that I also dislike the walking speed of the characters. I also find that often the price you pay for transport doesn't make sense.

Though if I remember correctly with really tough use of the jetpack you can pick up speed, though you risk injuring yourself.

I wish I had more time with Cortex Command... I have no idea what was going on and by the time I did the trial was over.

So I wonder if I can go out on a limb and say the trial is bad, but then again the only way to tell is if people bought the game after playing the trial

So that is the question: Did the trial help you buy the game?

[Apple Master]

Nope.
Reading the forums Epic Moments thread helped me buy the game.

[Cthulhu]

Having played a previous build is what got me to buy the game.

Honestly, it's true.  There's no real challenge and the first thing I do with an install of CC is mod it so I have unlimited money and start seeing how long I can kick ass before my processor melts.

[Duke 2.0]

There's no real challenge and the first thing I do with an install of CC is mod it so I have unlimited money and start seeing how long I can kick ass Abuse the engine before my processor melts.

Place a soldier on a blimp flying towards another blimp and try to stab the actor on the other blimp with a knife. This must be done before a bunch of unguided rockets fall onto that location.

[Cthulhu]

There's no real challenge and the first thing I do with an install of CC is mod it so I have unlimited money and start seeing how long I can kick ass Abuse the engine before my processor melts.

Place a soldier on a blimp flying towards another blimp and try to stab the actor on the other blimp with a knife. This must be done before a bunch of unguided rockets fall onto that location.

Hells yeah

I also mod dummies, skeletons, and robots out of the game when it starts, because it's no fun when there's no gore.

[dragnar]

It is complicated but suffice it to say, I've had a great time playing bad games before.

No you haven't. If you had a great time it was NOT a bad game. Period. If the amount of fun you derive from a game is not a measure of it's worth then what it?

And as for why I got Cortex Command... looking thought the modding forums. The stuff in there is epic.