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[Niveras]

If the monsters were intelligent, they'd actively guard the stairways and call reinforcements from deeper dungeon levels. Or just plant some oklobs in the entrance vault on D:1. That'd keep most adventurers out.

This is debatable, because the argument about adding intelligent AI is intended to bring monster powers down to the player's level, rather than balancing their weak AI with powers inaccessible to the player. Players can't destroy stairs (does Lugonu's Corrupt affect them?), so even an intelligent AI could not do so either. Players probably can create an oklob farm in D1, if they had enough time and resources, but only if they are a devout follower of Fehdas. Whether the enemy monsters can even become religious followers, or gain piety, would be up for debate. Their lack of religion may balance against the fact that monsters aren't subject to the same resource limitations as the player.

[lemon10]

If the monsters were intelligent, they'd actively guard the stairways and call reinforcements from deeper dungeon levels. Or just plant some oklobs in the entrance vault on D:1. That'd keep most adventurers out.

This is debatable, because the argument about adding intelligent AI is intended to bring monster powers down to the player's level, rather than balancing their weak AI with powers inaccessible to the player. Players can't destroy stairs (does Lugonu's Corrupt affect them?), so even an intelligent AI could not do so either. Players probably can create an oklob farm in D1, if they had enough time and resources, but only if they are a devout follower of Fehdas. Whether the enemy monsters can even become religious followers, or gain piety, would be up for debate. Their lack of religion may balance against the fact that monsters aren't subject to the same resource limitations as the player.

Suppose your right about that, although if it was truly equal, some monsters would worhip Fehdas as well, gaining the power to do so.
Even if they couldn't, the core point remains, that they would just get three ancient lich's guarding the down stairs on D1, and 3 of the hell bosses (whatever they are called) guarding the up stairs on D2. If the AI was truly as intelligent as a human,  it would be impossible to even escape D1

While it's annoying that the AI isn't restricted to the same limitations (especially annoying with berserk and spells you can cast, but they don't have the drawbacks), the goal isn't to make the game "fair" the goal is to make it fun (well, it would be if the crawl dev team didn't hate humanity, which is easy to see by how they made the game so hard).

[Niveras]

I agree, which is also a point I made in the my initial response to this tangent: that even under an intelligent AI, developers have to make concessions not only for what inherent advantages monsters have, but for what is "fun."

[nenjin]

Not to knock the Crawl devs, but sometimes I feel like the guiding principle is less "fun" than it is "challenge."

There are two ways to approach Crawl. One is as intended, playing it as a rogue-like and taking the knocks as they come. The other is trying to play it like a traditional RPG, and it makes for a ton of frustration. Most of the game seems developed toward maintaining the challenge, and therefore the chance to lose and restart, at all times.

Most of the time, running into stuff that can hit for 1/4 of your life a swing, or a room full of summoning monsters, isn't really fun to me. It's challenging, but since I'm not playing Crawl as standard...it's more like "great, time to kill one dude then save so I can actually get past this part."

I find Crawl gets less fun the deeper I go, because every end-branch challenge ends up that way. Simply throw the strongest monsters in huge numbers at the player until they crack or make a fatal error.

[DJ]

In-your-face cheating kills fun, for me at least.

[Antioch]

I find that crawl gets better the longer you play, because dying means you will lose everything. This means that some enemies, although only represented by a tiny icon, are insanely fearsome. The moment you see one of the rulers of hell, an ancient lich and probably most fearsome of all: Cerebov, your heart rate rises, because you know that one mistake means death. This means you can get a real feeling of victory when you overcome these obstacles.

How can you have fearsome bosses in games like TES where all you have to do is reload?

[nenjin]

There are times I'll go whole floors without save scumming. But when I hit that one monster who you can't touch, or that Vault that you have almost no chance of surviving...it makes me feel like the game has built in 50 hours of failure to get to 5 hours of fun. And that makes me not want to play it straight, ever. You can only redo D: 1 - 10 so many times before you get sick of seeing it.

This means you can get a real feeling of victory when you overcome these obstacles.

How can you have fearsome bosses in games like TES where all you have to do is reload?

Fair point. But on the flipside, should players just *not* be able to accomplish stuff in game? Should players be skipping whole chunks of the game because they're just not doable? Is that choice or process of figuring out what will kill you supposed to be part of the fun?

Again, for people treating Crawl as a "run", I'm sure that's fine. Some characters can't do some parts, being able to do all parts means you've some how earned it.

To someone who is treating it more like a traditional RPG, a little part of ya dies when you see something in the Dungeon and you know you just have to completely avoid it.

And you can make bosses, and death, fearsome. Imagine Crawl with corpse retrieval and level losses as an optional way to play instead of hardcore. Bosses could still be fearsome and completely unfair, but at the very least people aren't watching 4 to 10 hours worth of meticulous playing go up in smoke. What really kills me is when I play a melee character who can kill virtually anything, and then you run into like a Hill Giant and it's WHOMP WHOMP you're dead. Or an Elven Blade Master you can't touch while he just whittles away at you every swing. It's times like that I ask Crawl "What am I supposed to do? Oh, skip it? How fun."

[Leafsnail]

The thing is... there are some enemies you have to skip.  If a melee character could flatten all monsters as soon as they met them, the only element of skill would be making sure you could always get to a chokepoint and avoid missiles.

[G-Flex]

Crawl is simply not designed as a game where any character can handle any threat they come across at any time. This is not a bad thing. Some games are like that, and Crawl is not, nor should it be.

Crawl is largely about survival, and survival means knowing when you're in over your head and should run away.

[ChairmanPoo]

Crawl is largely about survival, and survival means knowing when you're in over your head and should run away.

Probably the key thing to bear mind.

That's why IMO keeping stealth at decent levels is important.

[Angel Of Death]

*sigh* I just got killed by an ancient lich... About 16 turns in the game.

[ThtblovesDF]

If the monsters were intelligent, they'd actively guard the stairways and call reinforcements from deeper dungeon levels. Or just plant some oklobs in the entrance vault on D:1. That'd keep most adventurers out.

This is debatable, because the argument about adding intelligent AI is intended to bring monster powers down to the player's level, rather than balancing their weak AI with powers inaccessible to the player.

That reminds me of the story of the "fucking goblins"

Imagine a D&D group, heroes of all kinds, slaying dragons and ogres, monsters of epic levels with ease... till the dm gets niffty, pitting them against a dungeon used by goblins. Not any goblins, these, level 1-3 goblins are tricky bastards. Using simply things like crossbows, torches, oil, ropes and there superior numbers they created a dungeon crawl that, in many ways, seems like a dwarf fort. Yes, the "lure you around a corner, drop you into a pit of oil-with spikes-throw a torch in it, the walls are full of slime, marksgoblins shoting in from small holes and from the top, rope cutters awaiting and some droping stones from above. The Heroes soon preferred to fight a good ol Mature dragon then those little, tricky guys.

[beorn080]

If the monsters were intelligent, they'd actively guard the stairways and call reinforcements from deeper dungeon levels. Or just plant some oklobs in the entrance vault on D:1. That'd keep most adventurers out.

This is debatable, because the argument about adding intelligent AI is intended to bring monster powers down to the player's level, rather than balancing their weak AI with powers inaccessible to the player.

That reminds me of the story of the "fucking goblins"

Imagine a D&D group, heroes of all kinds, slaying dragons and ogres, monsters of epic levels with ease... till the dm gets niffty, pitting them against a dungeon used by goblins. Not any goblins, these, level 1-3 goblins are tricky bastards. Using simply things like crossbows, torches, oil, ropes and there superior numbers they created a dungeon crawl that, in many ways, seems like a dwarf fort. Yes, the "lure you around a corner, drop you into a pit of oil-with spikes-throw a torch in it, the walls are full of slime, marksgoblins shoting in from small holes and from the top, rope cutters awaiting and some droping stones from above. The Heroes soon preferred to fight a good ol Mature dragon then those little, tricky guys.

It's called Tucker's Kobolds. To people who have fought it, it's on the level of Tomb of Horrors. Nasty things, kobolds. It's actually worse then Tomb of Horrors since a good DM can change the dungeon further on easily based on the actions of the party.

[Mindmaker]

Wow.
Just had a quad level up, because I polymorpehd Prince Ribbit into a Draconian and blasted it with wands.

[G-Flex]

*sigh* I just got killed by an ancient lich... About 16 turns in the game.

How the hell did you manage to find an ancient lich on the first level of the dungeon?!