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[Robsoie]

That's silly. Invocations, Evocations, and items are not Spellcasting, unless you think that everything magical is a spell.

Every spells you personnally cast on a creature or on your character is ... a spell.
Not all spells are using the Spellcasting ability, that's all.

[G-Flex]

So do potions count as spells as well? Or is there an FDA medication exception clause? Are they homeopathic!?

[Robsoie]

*sigh*

[Dr.Feelgood]

Every spells you personnally cast on a creature or on your character is ... a spell.
Not all spells are using the Spellcasting ability, that's all.

...so divine abilities granted by your god (invocations), like channeling a berserk rage, transferring skills, etc. are spells?

[Robsoie]

Are you casting the mutation ?

[Dr.Feelgood]

Are you casting the mutation ?

Edited my previous post. No, you don't "cast" the mutation. You can cure it with invocations (i.e. praying to your god) though. Do you consider that a spell?

[Robsoie]

(took from my previous post edit to there)
In my understanding term of divine magic, if it costs magic points, it is some kind of divine spell you're casting, if it costs only food/faith, it's not a spell but a divine ability you're using

[Frumple]

Invocations, evocations, spellcasting, yes. These are the marks of the hybrid.

I'unno, maybe it's a stat thing. Pure Int dudes don't really need anything besides int. Pure dex ones have stabbing and stealth, which get borderline broken at higher levels. Pure strength gets... armor, which has only just become non-crap again, and melee/crossbows, neither of which is going to get you through the game without god-aid.

I really doubt anyone here would be disappointed if most everything besides th'spellcasting/invocation/evocation skills recieved some sort of emergent abilities as they reach higher levels. Spellcasters get new abilities (spells), invokers and evokers get new and more reliable ones. Everyone else gets jack. Well, they get better at what they had, but they get nothing new. That's kinda' boring, and inequitable in comparison.

It's not like it's something massively difficult to implement into a RL. I can name at least a half-dozen that does it right off the top of my head (Heng, T4, Steamband, Incursion, Dungeonmans, Caves of Qud) and there's more beside. All we'd really like to see, I'd think, is stuff like mighty blow, maybe a charge attack or short-range pierce or crap, yanno'? Something so we get more than +1 to hit/dam and some speed improvement from getting another level of Axes, while the fire-spitting dude gets to puke fireballs out 'is arse for the same gain.

[agatharchides]

Heck, my understanding is that the +x, +y stats on weapons are supposed to represent enchantments, as are the +x stats on armor. Then there is the magical ability of certain armors to protect you from fire, cold or whatever. I am sure one could, if one wanted to, win without using spells (just play any fighter type) or invocations. I've heard of greater feats, like clearing Zot 5 with 20 max HP.  That said, I don't see the point. Basically everything in this game is 'magical', if you want a game with no magic of any kind you are just playing the wrong one.

 Having won with a melee/caster hybrid and a stealth character, I have to dispute the idea that stabbing gets better in the endgame. Once your sleep spells no longer work reliably, you  are pretty much out of options when a monster wakes up and shouts, which one will sooner or later. I crushed Hell, Pan and Zot to get a 9 rune win with my Merfolk using a bardiche of holy wrath, my Spriggan barely got away with a 3 rune win, and I was mostly just using straight melee with a quick blade by then. That said, casters do have more diverse options than melee, which is why I usually play a hybrid or pure caster.

[G-Flex]

Once your sleep spells no longer work reliably, you  are pretty much out of options when a monster wakes up and shouts, which one will sooner or later.

Not entirely. There's stabbing from being invisible, and from distracting/confusing/paralyzing your opponents, and things like that. Granted, it's not nearly as good, but it can still cause pretty massive damage.

[3]

Also, demonspawn assassin + shadow mutation. I've gotten to Zot on the back of that and a little decent gear in the past, and I didn't have especially high sneak skill or extra speed. Or invisibility. Only non-god spell I had was butterflies. I've never had any trouble at all with straight melee combat with either spriggans in general or the aforementioned spawn as long as I take things carefully, so...

[Mr.Person]

I dispute that Int-only characters are the ultimate mages. Now that Dex contributes to Dodging, high Dex will save your life. I mean yes, sometimes Int-only is the way to go, but at least now fairly high Int and Dex is a feasible character build.

[agatharchides]

It's true you have more options than just hibernation as an enchanter, and also true that they aren't that much use against, say, a pan lord or even a shadow fiend. Never done demonspawn, though to be honest, where enchanter types start to flag is about where Zot starts. If you want a 3 rune win a stealth enchanter is one of the best, for Pan I'd have to say they are pretty weak. 

[zchris13]

Strategy for Dungeon Crawl 0.8 Trunk:
1. Pick race and class.
2. Go ash.
3. Tornado everything.

This works for all classes except Demigods. They just have to skip straight to step 3.

[G-Flex]

It's true you have more options than just hibernation as an enchanter, and also true that they aren't that much use against, say, a pan lord or even a shadow fiend. Never done demonspawn, though to be honest, where enchanter types start to flag is about where Zot starts. If you want a 3 rune win a stealth enchanter is one of the best, for Pan I'd have to say they are pretty weak.

Of course, if you're doing Pan and the Hells and such, odds are you've branched out by then. A spriggan can easily branch out into other schools of magic, which... at least helps.