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[Max™]

Keijo... it's so damn ridiculous, they keep getting to points where you're thinking "maybe they're gonna go a bit more serious here" and then boom, one girl starts hypnotizing the others with her breasts.

[Neonivek]

Whelp... My opinion on Japan keeps getting lower and lower

Though I am being silly...

Since I know that Japan is a "transitional country" as it is still going from VERY traditional viewpoints to more secular viewpoint... with both being in prominence at the same time. This is just affirmation to this fact and I am not learning anything new.

It just... Hurts to experience the more... damaging aspects of Japanese society. (Such as the Gamera movie where these farmers were guilty of forstalling progress by holding out for more money from the government... The poor farmers... were the bad guys...)

Though GOODNESS does it really change how I look at some anime when I see some of the narrative triteness wasn't... triteness but "How things are" in their POV.

---

Also to preempt the whole "But America does it too!" because... of course any criticism I do here means America MUST be perfect... Or that Japan MUST be pure unadulterated evil instead of being... you know... A COUNTRY.

Just play any episode of Modern Law and Order and I am sure there is something in there I want to destroy.

In fact... I hate modern Law and Order more then anything else I've seen... Except MAAAYBE FOZ... But FOZ is a scummy anime that has my justified contempt.

[Ultimuh]

Been watching some episodes of Tiger & Bunny the last few days now.
And I have just watched episode 20

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I always thought Mr. Maverick seemed a tad suspicious. Sure, what he did in the past is unforgivable.
But what he did by the end of this episode.. I really hope he'll eventually get a fitting punishment.

[Leafsnail]

You're kindof getting there yourself but trashy cartoons aren't necessarily an accurate representation of a country.

[Neonivek]

Ok WHEW... Ok the show is turning around and after I calmed down I understand that everything the character said is meant to be "Counter cultural" and somewhat traditional. SOME of it is meant to be "unintuitively true" but the fact that she constantly relies on that as a justification is sort of where we are meant to clue in.

And now, of course, everything is falling apart around the character for... exactly what she preaches.

She had to lie, cheat, set children against eachother, spy on them, control their lives, and everything just to keep up the illusion of what an "Elite" is.

---

You're kindof getting there yourself but trashy cartoons aren't necessarily an accurate representation of a country.

Sort of... Media is usually an echo-chamber of a societies values, albeit idealized... As well as their anxiety and prejudices.

The USA does have an appreciation for money... even if it is earned... unscrupulously after all.

---

Actually you know what all this makes me want to see?

Most of these shows are about power, respect, honor and we see what it takes to maintain this.

Yet this power, respect, and honor is rarely used to actually do the things people would wish they had the tools to do.

If anything the act of maintaining power becomes more important.

A show about someone who is so driven into trying to maintain it... That in the end they do no good. They have a lot of opportunities to do something, anything... But in the end they saw the sacrifice of even a bit of their hard earned power as too far... and thus they crumble and become impotent and useless.

I want to see that show! and it better not be the show about the guy who can mind control you but only once

[Frumple]

Doesn't deathnote run along those lines? Not quite directly but fairly close.

[Neonivek]

Doesn't deathnote run along those lines? Not quite directly but fairly close.

That is more that in order to keep up Light's idea of a perfect world he has to do one horrible thing after another until he is far far worse then anyone he criticized. That even if you considered Light's goals just, he had to commit far greater evil to achieve it.

Rather then the stagnation I am suggesting

----

Edit: Nevermind you are meant to agree with the main character of the show I was referring to earlier... Stupid stupidness I hate you show I hate you!

Not as bad as FoZ in terms of depicting a deplorable, hateful, spiteful, wretched human being as "Appealing"... But it certainly is in the running.

And to de-stress I will state FoZ that just because you have an EXCUSE for why the main character is a horrible horrible human being... it doesn't mean it justifies how they act in the present. Zero being looked down upon for not being good at magic isn't an excuse for her being abusive.

[MagmaMcFry]

That is more that in order to keep up Light's idea of a perfect world he has to do one horrible thing after another until he is far far worse then anyone he criticized. That even if you considered Light's goals just, he had to commit far greater evil to achieve it.

As I see it, Light (almost) didn't get worse at all during the show. From the beginning he was willing to sacrifice other people to make the world a better place for him. The Death Note just gave him the ability to do his thing. Most of the story is just about him having to deal with the consequences of his actions he did not plan for, namely the fact that people would try to stop him more effectively than he expected, thus forcing him to take more drastic action.

Now you might say that he becomes more evil because he is willing to take those drastic steps, but from his perspective it makes perfect sense, because he absolutely needs to take those steps in order to not get caught and die. Except... for that one place where I believe he made a rather questionable decision, namely the part where he decided he'd only seal his knowledge away temporarily instead of giving up completely. Given all those unforeseen (yet obvious in hindsight) consequences he has had to deal with so far, he could have decided it was way too risky to continue and could have just given up with a perfect alibi instead of continuing to be Japan's most wanted criminal. In this case he wasn't forced to a choice by Rem, but he decided to continue because he was having so much fun with his mindgames with L ("I'll take a potato chip... AND EAT IT") that he probably just didn't consider the alternative.

[Frumple]

Pretty sure most signs pointed towards a lot more than just that, though, neo. Lou's home life would probably have ended up with at least her mom in jail, were it in more modern times. Her mother wasn't very good at being one. Heart was arguably in the right place, but that was about it.

Also not just being looked down on, if the work was much to go by. You had folks openly mocking her in the middle of classes -- multiple ones, and by all appearances ones not part of any habitual harassing group. That points to a pretty seriously messed up social situation, to say the least. "Looked down on" doesn't cover the likely severity when stuff like that's happening.

L being abused and suffering an apparently wide spread and persistent bullying etc. campaign... well, it still doesn't excuse being abusive (to the extent it actually was, and not just anime tropes being themselves), because precisely bloody nothing does that, but it certainly explains a lot of it. Significant social maladaption/ostracization, severe class-related issues, all on top of an upbringing that would be abusive by almost any standard and hammered in a really messed up set of values, particularly in relation to personal strength. Then tossed on top of a series of events that would break a lot of (most, really) people in two, psychologically. If you're trying to take the series particularly seriously on that front you're dealing with a spectacularly fucked up set of main characters.

[Neonivek]

That is more that in order to keep up Light's idea of a perfect world he has to do one horrible thing after another until he is far far worse then anyone he criticized. That even if you considered Light's goals just, he had to commit far greater evil to achieve it.

As I see it, Light (almost) didn't get worse at all during the show.

Ok instead of stepping back to reassert what I meant lets take what you are saying here. Light didn't get worse? Lets ignore the people he killed in order to protect his identity.

Well at the start of the show/manga he only killed people he was absolutely sure were murderers... But as the show went on who he considered to be worthy of killing became wider and wider. Until he was perfectly willing to kill people who basically committed any crime.

Or the innocent people he killed for his own gains later on.

-Below is Familiar of Zero... and as you know I hate it with the fury of a thousand suns... thus I'll keep it in spoilers because I can go on and on-

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Pretty sure most signs pointed towards a lot more than just that, though, neo. Lou's home life would probably have ended up with at least her mom in jail, were it in more modern times. Her mother wasn't very good at being one. Heart was arguably in the right place, but that was about it.

Also not just being looked down on, if the work was much to go by. You had folks openly mocking her in the middle of classes -- multiple ones, and by all appearances ones not part of any habitual harassing group. That points to a pretty seriously messed up social situation, to say the least. "Looked down on" doesn't cover the likely severity when stuff like that's happening.

L being abused and suffering an apparently wide spread and persistent bullying etc. campaign... well, it still doesn't excuse being abusive (to the extent it actually was, and not just anime tropes being themselves), because precisely bloody nothing does that, but it certainly explains a lot of it. Significant social maladaption/ostracization, severe class-related issues, all on top of an upbringing that would be abusive by almost any standard and hammered in a really messed up set of values, particularly in relation to personal strength. Then tossed on top of a series of events that would break a lot of (most, really) people in two, psychologically. If you're trying to take the series particularly seriously on that front you're dealing with a spectacularly fucked up set of main characters.

IF that was what they were going for. If they were presenting us with a horribly flawed human being who does terrible things. (Like say... Evangeleon does where the hero is a completely messed up anti-hero who normally would be getting psychiatric help but the situation forces him back in only making him worse and worse and to give the show credit.)

I mean... They do, but the thing to remember about Familiar of Zero is it has, conveniently, zero self awareness.

"Lou has low self-esteem so we should feel sorry for her and laugh when she abuses others. Isn't it funny how she constantly abuses people?... Man it is still funny even when no one is making fun of her! Wow now she is the greatest mage ever and she is STILL abusing people!"

The part where I actually put LoZ into the box of "Terrible forever" wasn't the abuse scene... It was when the main character had a dream he was home again... but cried because he wouldn't be with Lou ever again...

Thanks show... for this lovely story about a boy kidnapped from his home and forced into servitude with a horrible abuser... And we are meant to treat it as a perfect love story... I actually complimented the abuse the first time I saw it because I was naïve enough at the time to believe it was furthering the setting and emphasizing just how much of a slave he is and how commoners are treated (But nope... The scene is meant to be funny and sexy! Wow! Look at how he cries in fear!)

And the thing is... She isn't so damaged she can only really handle people in an abusive way... Why? Because we see another person she has love for and she doesn't treat him anywhere NEAR the same was she treats him.

The anime make excuses... and thinks it gets away with it.

A mother abusing her child, isn't a good mother because she was yelled at, at work. If Familiar of Zero did it... The mother would win mother of the year and the scene would be considered hilarious comedy!

Also you missed the BIGGEST part about Familiar of Zero Frumple.

Lou isn't looked down upon anywhere close to as much as they thinks she is... It is almost all in her head. It is why in spite of the fact that she has a familiar almost everyone secretly fawns over AND is the second strongest familiar that she still thinks she has the worst one.

[MagmaMcFry]

That is more that in order to keep up Light's idea of a perfect world he has to do one horrible thing after another until he is far far worse then anyone he criticized. That even if you considered Light's goals just, he had to commit far greater evil to achieve it.

As I see it, Light (almost) didn't get worse at all during the show.

Ok instead of stepping back to reassert what I meant lets take what you are saying here. Light didn't get worse? Lets ignore the people he killed in order to protect his identity.

Well at the start of the show/manga he only killed people he was absolutely sure were murderers... But as the show went on who he considered to be worthy of killing became wider and wider. Until he was perfectly willing to kill people who basically committed any crime.

Or the innocent people he killed for his own gains later on.

You completely ignore his motives. At the start of the show, his primary focus was to remove all the bad guys on Earth. He started with the most obvious ones, not because they were of highest priority, but since they were easiest to find. When people found out there was someone behind all the heart attacks, he chose his victims and death methods to build a positive public profile, and of course he had to use verified criminals for that. Later on, out of necessity he killed people that were too close to his secrets, and other people for personal benefits. Even later, he starts killing people for personal reasons, such as revenge.

Clearly there's a whole bunch of escalation of violence here, but not necessarily escalation of evil. Obviously Light is pretty evil at the end. But since when was Light a good guy in the beginning? Think about it. He's never shown to have any people he holds dear, he doesn't have friends except when he needs some for cover, he doesn't interact with people in ways that don't give him personal benefit. Light was a sociopath since episode 1, he's always been that evil. All that ever changed during the show was the circumstances.

[Neonivek]

I was being "Even if you assume he started out good" I wasn't asserting he was.

---

Well all in all I got to see a side of Japan I never want to see again

It is so weird and so alien that I have to... check to see if things are true or not.

Is Honesty even a virtue in Japan? (AHHH!!! research is confusing!)

[Frumple]

As much as it is anywhere, so far as I can recall.

[Neonivek]

As much as it is anywhere, so far as I can recall.

It is actually a very interesting subject as honesty in traditional virtues was interlinked with fealty.

As well Japanese society is very... secretive so to speak.

One person I spoke to said, but they are hardly an expert, is that Honesty is a virtue but it assumes that it is to your family, boss, and stuff... but not to strangers.

Though my research basically says that Japan's traditional and current views haven't changed all that much (so to speak) and it is more that they are trying to apply traditional views to modern times. Which isn't anything new.

---

I try not to assume virtues are the same all over as there are differences and intersections.

Loyalty I believe isn't a Virtue in the USA (I think... hmm I am probably wrong). While it is one of the main virtues of Japanese society (and China)

[Frumple]

No, it is. It's just the ideal vis a vis virtues and the practice are often farcically different things.

Not really sure where you got the idea that loyalty isn't seen as a virtue in the states from...