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[LegacyCWAL]

The point is that it's big enough to use as a weapon (and therefore worth tracking as a discrete item), not that it's a good weapon.  You can use pants as a weapon if you want, too.

Oh.  Right

[Impaler[WrG]]

All the Kobolds that enter my fort have daggers which would be the equivalent of a knife, just assign the various fish-cleaning, butchering and crafting abilities to that weapon.  Same goes with Hammer its already in the game.  All that really needs to be added are chisels, saws and shovels, hardly a bewildering amount of complexity.

[irmo]

Ooorr . . . just embark with one!

So if I forget to embark with one the advice I'm given is "don't be a moron"?

Yes. This is why the default embark setup includes picks and axes. It should include a full complement of tools, whatever that ends up being. (Possibly fisherdwarves should bring their own spears, the way hunters bring crossbows. Or maybe they should all bring appropriate tools? I remember Jagged Alliance giving you the option, when you hired someone, to pay a little extra for them to bring their own gear.)

How about make it so that the tools aren't actually required for a job, they just speed it up by a couple factors? A dwarf can dig and plant stuff with a flat chunk of wood or their bare hands, it just goes way slower than with a shovel.

I really dislike this. The tool restriction adds some badly-needed structure. It shouldn't be possible to get around it by just waiting longer for everything.

[Footkerchief]

... unless we get the ability to make them 3 for an ore and all dwarves carry them regardless of jobs.

That sounds like a great way of handling it.  3 per bar for chisels too.

[Warlord255]

How about make it so that the tools aren't actually required for a job, they just speed it up by a couple factors? A dwarf can dig and plant stuff with a flat chunk of wood or their bare hands, it just goes way slower than with a shovel.

Hmm.  Digging through bedrock, no.  Carpentry, no.  But fish cleaning or butchering?  Maybe.  It's worth considering.

If more tools are added and they are equally necessary I would recommended that the embark screen be upgraded with a 'recommended stuff' check list.  Anyone who remembers Oregon Trail will remember the useful recommendations provided at its equivalent embark screen.  A checklist is passive so it dose not limit or encumber experienced players and it is a boon to the noob.  A simple list of items that can be scrolled through and an accompanying written description and recomendataion, for example a brief recommendation for picks would look like..

The list could also be handled on a profession-specific basis, so it could look at what skills your dwarves have and tell you what tools are needed to make use of those skills.  Or perhaps some of these could be treated as "free" items, like how Ambushers get a free crossbow.

Anyway, here's an updated list of possible tools.  I think they all pass Skid's sensible "usable as a weapon" standard.

• Utility knives (for leatherworking, fish cleaning, butchering, exceptionally minced plump helmet, etc.)
• Chisels (for all stoneworkers)
• Hammers (for smiths and stoneworkers)
• Saws (for carpenters, woodcrafters, and bone carvers)
• Shovels (for farmers)

I'm also against utility knives; it'd be something you leave at the workshop. Ditto for forging hammers and saws.

Hammer-chisel sets for stoneworkers (read: engravers) is a great example, however, as it's a "portable" profession most of the time. Likewise, hammers alone could be required for constructing non-block walls (giving blocks an added benefit), and a generalized farming tool (A hoe or rake?) would make sense for farmers to have on their person.

...and now we need rake weapon traps. +1 to nose-breaking.

[irmo]

I'm also against utility knives; it'd be something you leave at the workshop. Ditto for forging hammers and saws.

In that case, they should be workshop components, like the anvil.

(IIRC the idea with utility knives was that they're required for so many different jobs that every dwarf should carry one all the time. Unfortunately this doesn't address what happens if you don't have enough knives--do some dwarves randomly lose the ability to do half of the jobs? Do new knives appear out of nowhere?)

Hammer-chisel sets for stoneworkers (read: engravers) is a great example, however, as it's a "portable" profession most of the time. Likewise, hammers alone could be required for constructing non-block walls (giving blocks an added benefit), and a generalized farming tool (A hoe or rake?) would make sense for farmers to have on their person.

I'm in favor of all walls having to be made of blocks. And the generalized farming tool should be a shovel, which could also be used to dig through soil (not sure about this, it might make it hard to equip miners).

[Granite26]

I'm in favor of all walls having to be made of blocks. And the generalized farming tool should be a shovel, which could also be used to dig through soil (not sure about this, it might make it hard to equip miners).

Blocks



I think utility knives should be like socks.  Everyone shoes up at the fort with them, they'll carry them if they don't have one, and replace the old worn out ones by leaving them in the hallway.

Not blocks

[LegacyCWAL]

In that case, they should be workshop components, like the anvil.

OK, if you need a forging hammer to make an anvil-based workshop, and only an anvil-based workshop requires a forging hammer...then why not just leave it abstract?  Just say that "where it says 'anvil' it means 'anvil and other related objects like a forging hammer'".

[Footkerchief]

In that case, they should be workshop components, like the anvil.

OK, if you need a forging hammer to make an anvil-based workshop, and only an anvil-based workshop requires a forging hammer...then why not just leave it abstract?  Just say that "where it says 'anvil' it means 'anvil and other related objects like a forging hammer'".

It wouldn't just be the forge that requires a hammer though.  You would use the same hammer with a chisel for engraving.

[Impaler[WrG]]

Indeed, I see no reason that tools can't be both 'owned and carried' like the pick and ax and also serve as components in a workshop.  A masons workshop and an Engraver are really using the same tools (chisel and hammer) but one is in a workshop and the other is roaming the halls.

The only downside is that it can be tricky to actually get tools out of the hands of roaming dwarfs that have them, you have to find and de-task the desired dwarf to make them drop the tool which can be cumbersome.  It might also raise issue if dwarf are ever allowed to 'own' their tools outright.

[LegacyCWAL]

That raises another point: if more jobs require their own tools, that adds to the list of mutually exclusive jobs.  If masons require hammers, a miner/mason will be about as useful as a miner/woodcutter is now.  And so on.

[Warlord255]

That raises another point: if more jobs require their own tools, that adds to the list of mutually exclusive jobs.  If masons require hammers, a miner/mason will be about as useful as a miner/woodcutter is now.  And so on.

Personal opinion: never get a miner/mason, because your mason is needed to process all the rock you're mining.

[Random832]

Ooorr . . . just embark with one!

So if I forget to embark with one the advice I'm given is "don't be a moron"?

Yeah. Same as if you don't embark with tools you need now (yeah, you can get by without a pick and/or axe, or without an anvil, but good luck getting by with _none_ of those, or with no metal bars to make what you didn't bring, or no stone to make a furnace if you didn't bring enough fuel.)

[Granite26]

I think the point is that the more complicated the production trees, the harder it will be for new(ish) players to determine a feasible starting loadout.  Right now, all you need is 2 things and your fort can survive indefinitely from what's on site, and make every possible item (I'm thinking pick and anvil here, with the three wood from the wagon).

As it stands, if you don't bring an anvil, the only way to get one is trading.  What happens when there's 3-4 things like that, or certain sets.

[korora]

I'm not sure it's desirable to only need two items to make a giant fortress.  It's definitely a pain to need to bring or trade for an anvil, but that's pretty much the only thing that makes deciding how to embark difficult.  Personally, I'd like early forts to be more dependent on the caravans, not less.

I think the solution for new players is to make the Play Now! more viable; as it is, it's far from what an experienced player would embark with.  Also, when you embark it initializes your list you with a bunch of stuff like food, picks, and an anvil.  Presumably any new tools would go in there and you'd have to intentionally remove them from the list in order to embark without them.

Maybe there could be a "Toolset" embark item that turns into some hammers and chisels, etc. when you get to the site?  Or maybe it should be automatically included, like the wagon and pack animals?  Maybe dwarves that embark with a sufficient level in a given skill would come with the necessary tools?