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[Spey]

OK heres an idea

Miners currently need a tool to do their job, as do woodcutters. Soldiers use weapons, shields, or armour to do theirs. But everyone else just seems to make do with their bare hands.

I think each job should really require some form of tool or implement, or perhaps some kind of protective wear.

• Butchers and fishery workers might need a knife or some kind of Cleaver and perhaps have preference to wear some kind of cloth apron.
• Carpenters might use a variety of saws, axes, planes etc and wear a leather apron or somesuch. but maybe woodcutters would use a different type of axe more suited to felling a tree.
• Furnace operators might require a suit of protective leather such as gloves a smock and a mask to ward off being singed. Blacksmiths might also wear something similar (or a leather apron at least) and use a hammer and tongs.

The list really could go on and on as most jobs need some kind of implement. As for whether the equipment should be carried by the worker (as with miners and woodcutters) or required as part of the construction of a workshop (as with an alchemist's laboratory) would probably depend on the type of job. Different quality levels of tool could also affect the quality level or speed of the work.

This would also tie in with adventurers starting to use skills, you would need to carry a fishing rod to fish or some kind of knife to use for skinning and butchering an animal you have killed.

Clothing also might wear more quickly doing lots of labour tasks, so wearing leather items (which should be more hard wearing) means you wear your clothing out less rapidly.

What are your thoughts?

[Warlord255]

I know it's been said a million times before, but it's generally assumed that the tools come with the workshop. Fishing, however, and some other outdoor skills (Herbalism with bags/backpacks, perhaps?) would be entirely appropriate for tool use, however.

As for having the tools be a requirement to build the workshop, it's an interesting possibility, but it hampers your ability to build severely - your fort might starve because you don't have metal for a knife for the butcher's shop. Some things are better kept abstracted.

[TrombonistAndrew]

Ooorr . . . just embark with one!

[Silverionmox]

As for having the tools be a requirement to build the workshop, it's an interesting possibility, but it hampers your ability to build severely - your fort might starve because you don't have metal for a knife for the butcher's shop. Some things are better kept abstracted.

That's the point of building an outpost - to bring civilization to the wilderness. Tools always were very important for settlers. Of course there should be possible workarounds, like using stone knives or bone fishing hooks. A good preparation is part of the game.
A few items should be essential for a workshop, while others could enhance the speed or quality of the work. That way it's possible to gradually upgrade the quality of the workshops.

[Granite26]

I think ya'll are underestimating the effect this will have on the aproachability of the game.

That said, what's wrong with a generic 'tools' that is assumed to contain everything a dwarf needs (knife and hammer and nails, etc). 

Dwarfs being dwarfs, it'd be a special thing made by the parents when their little one was brewing.  (Cause you KNOW the dwarf phrase is 'got one in the still'.)  It would be presented to the dwarf when he reached the age of 12 (which is would open up a whole new set of labours for them at that age).

eh?

[Silverionmox]

I think it's part of the charm of the game that you need blocks, mechanisms, a bucket and a rope or chain to build a well.. instead of building it from generic "raw materials". I don't think it makes the game more difficult unless there would be a dozen of arcane and obscure tools required to even start a carpenter's workshop. Instead just require a saw, and your carpenter can get started. He'll state that he could use a workbench (aka table), hammer, file, etc. later on in a "needs of the fortress" report.

[Impaler[WrG]]

Currently the tools that are key to starting a for are Pick, Ax and Anvil.  If you fail to bring these with you your in trouble, fortunately the default embark profile will give them to you. 

If more tools are added and they are equally necessary I would recommended that the embark screen be upgraded with a 'recommended stuff' check list.  Anyone who remembers Oregon Trail will remember the useful recommendations provided at its equivalent embark screen.  A checklist is passive so it dose not limit or encumber experienced players and it is a boon to the noob.  A simple list of items that can be scrolled through and an accompanying written description and recomendataion, for example a brief recommendation for picks would look like..

"Picks are used by Miners to excavate rock and soil along with valuable metal ores and gems, Picks can only be made of metal and thus a pick is necessary to obtain the metal ore to make more picks.  A pick will be used as a weapon if a miner is in combat but it is weaker then a real weapon.  It can be hard for a new settlement to create its own picks thus it is recomended that two picks be brought incase one is lost or destroyed"

The recommendation list would have a few more general categories like 'Seeds' and 'Drink' if the item/s is lacking its name appears red in the list, if partial yellow and if sufficient to meet the recommendation its green, perhaps even another color for excess.

A simple 'hard' recommendation set (one which always recommends the same equipment for all situations) would be enough to prevent noobs from wandering into the wilderness totally unprepared and without important tools.  But a system that actually considered the embark area (stone types, vegetation, climate, hostile neighbors) and could alter its recommendations based on that data would be even more useful and would be useful to intermediate level players who are exploring a wider variety of starting locations.

[Skid]

Just limit it to large tools that could be used as weapons. Butchers get cleavers, farmers get pitchforks, miners get their picks, etc.

How about make it so that the tools aren't actually required for a job, they just speed it up by a couple factors? A dwarf can dig and plant stuff with a flat chunk of wood or their bare hands, it just goes way slower than with a shovel.

[Capntastic]

Just limit it to large tools that could be used as weapons.

You know, this is so simple and elegant and perfect for this problem.   I really think this would set the bar for 'should this be added in, or abstracted.'

Individual nails:  Abstracted
A railroad spike:  Put that sucker in.    Into someone's eye.

[Footkerchief]

How about make it so that the tools aren't actually required for a job, they just speed it up by a couple factors? A dwarf can dig and plant stuff with a flat chunk of wood or their bare hands, it just goes way slower than with a shovel.

Hmm.  Digging through bedrock, no.  Carpentry, no.  But fish cleaning or butchering?  Maybe.  It's worth considering.

If more tools are added and they are equally necessary I would recommended that the embark screen be upgraded with a 'recommended stuff' check list.  Anyone who remembers Oregon Trail will remember the useful recommendations provided at its equivalent embark screen.  A checklist is passive so it dose not limit or encumber experienced players and it is a boon to the noob.  A simple list of items that can be scrolled through and an accompanying written description and recomendataion, for example a brief recommendation for picks would look like..

The list could also be handled on a profession-specific basis, so it could look at what skills your dwarves have and tell you what tools are needed to make use of those skills.  Or perhaps some of these could be treated as "free" items, like how Ambushers get a free crossbow.

Anyway, here's an updated list of possible tools.  I think they all pass Skid's sensible "usable as a weapon" standard.

• Utility knives (for leatherworking, fish cleaning, butchering, exceptionally minced plump helmet, etc.)
• Chisels (for all stoneworkers)
• Hammers (for smiths and stoneworkers)
• Saws (for carpenters, woodcrafters, and bone carvers)
• Shovels (for farmers)

[Draco18s]

Ooorr . . . just embark with one!

So if I forget to embark with one the advice I'm given is "don't be a moron"?

Small tools are best left abstracted.

[LegacyCWAL]

Anyway, here's an updated list of possible tools.  I think they all pass Skid's sensible "usable as a weapon" standard.

• Utility knives (for leatherworking, fish cleaning, butchering, exceptionally minced plump helmet, etc.)
• Chisels (for all stoneworkers)
• Hammers (for smiths and stoneworkers)
• Saws (for carpenters, woodcrafters, and bone carvers)
• Shovels (for farmers)

Saws don't usually make very good weapons.

[Footkerchief]

Saws don't usually make very good weapons.

The point is that it's big enough to use as a weapon (and therefore worth tracking as a discrete item), not that it's a good weapon.  You can use pants as a weapon if you want, too.

[Granite26]

I REALLY think we should abstract out utility knives, unless we get the ability to make them 3 for an ore and all dwarves carry them regardless of jobs.

[Silverionmox]

I REALLY think we should abstract out utility knives, unless we get the ability to make them 3 for an ore and all dwarves carry them regardless of jobs.

Which makes sense.