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Author Topic: The NEW Future of the Fortress  (Read 353134 times)

Topace3k

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Re: The NEW Future of the Fortress
« Reply #825 on: December 08, 2008, 08:03:57 pm »

I don't want to sound like a cynical jerk, but considering the current rate of development and the monumental amount of progress slated for completion for the next release, it feels as though it will literally be years before we have the next version out.

Someone allay my fears.
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Footkerchief

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Re: The NEW Future of the Fortress
« Reply #826 on: December 08, 2008, 08:13:30 pm »

Someone allay my fears.

This is a bona fide slow patch, which is pretty unusual.  Toady's typical countdown rate is more like 15 items per day rather than 1.  Taking breaks into account, my best estimate for the next release is late March or early April.
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LumenPlacidum

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Re: The NEW Future of the Fortress
« Reply #827 on: December 08, 2008, 08:48:13 pm »

My question; Will just about everything become materials? Dwarfs will the made out of muscle and bone and whatnot, but will objects be able to be made out of "dwarf" material?

Yes, the dev log mentioned that you can make things out of dwarf lung material, including other creatures like a "dwarf lung man."

I don't think this is what patarak was saying.  I think he understands that you can make, in the raws, almost anything out of anything.  However, what's not clear is whether a bronze collosus can be smelted into bars of bronze, or if a demon with bones made of diamond can be collected after death and turned into cut clear diamonds.  Will the materials used for body parts be able to be used by the dwarves in the fortress?
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Duke 2.0

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Re: The NEW Future of the Fortress
« Reply #828 on: December 08, 2008, 09:45:54 pm »


 It might depend on how butchering will be handled, and if there will be an object for each body part(Layers included). I can imagine defining borgles and getting borgles dropped upon death.

 Smelting would depend on how Toady works it. We would need to hear from him.
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Footkerchief

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Re: The NEW Future of the Fortress
« Reply #829 on: December 08, 2008, 10:29:27 pm »

It might depend on how butchering will be handled,

Yeah, it all depends on this.  Presumably he'll at least be doing basic things like making the size of the fat stack reflect the size of the creature's fat layer, and the meat stack reflect muscle tissue.  What I'm really hoping for is that any tissue can specify its own butchering returns, which would enable organ meats and stuff like a Plump Helmet Man that actually returns plump helmet when butchered.

Diamond bone => cut diamonds is harder because cutting diamond not only requires a specific material, but a specific item type (rough gemstones).  You might be able to hack in a "Smash stone bone into rough pieces" reaction for producing rough diamonds, if the new reactions are flexible enough.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2008, 10:32:28 pm by Footkerchief »
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Sean Mirrsen

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Re: The NEW Future of the Fortress
« Reply #830 on: December 08, 2008, 10:45:00 pm »

Why bother with cutting diamonds when you can have decorations and even BOLTS made of said diamond bone, and it might have the same value as diamonds.

Speaking of which. Toady, PLEEESE add value tags for ALL materials and items! If you can't bother to do all items, do it for the weapons at least! Making new weapons balanced is such a PITA without the ability to alter their prices...
« Last Edit: December 08, 2008, 10:47:07 pm by Sean Mirrsen »
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Footkerchief

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Re: The NEW Future of the Fortress
« Reply #831 on: December 08, 2008, 11:26:47 pm »

Speaking of which. Toady, PLEEESE add value tags for ALL materials and items! If you can't bother to do all items, do it for the weapons at least! Making new weapons balanced is such a PITA without the ability to alter their prices...

I'd prefer entity-specific value modifiers for materials and items.
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BurnedToast

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Re: The NEW Future of the Fortress
« Reply #832 on: December 08, 2008, 11:58:06 pm »

It might depend on how butchering will be handled,

Yeah, it all depends on this.  Presumably he'll at least be doing basic things like making the size of the fat stack reflect the size of the creature's fat layer, and the meat stack reflect muscle tissue.  What I'm really hoping for is that any tissue can specify its own butchering returns, which would enable organ meats and stuff like a Plump Helmet Man that actually returns plump helmet when butchered.

Plump Helmet Man *NEEDS* to be in the next version, perhaps as a new form of HFS as part of the more interesting underground features thing that's going on.
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Appelgren

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Re: The NEW Future of the Fortress
« Reply #833 on: December 09, 2008, 01:24:42 am »

I think it would be interesting if every plump helmet spawn had a small chance to grow into a vicious Plump Helmet Man. Or if that only happened in certain special highly magical areas. I also think it would be awesome if you could sow dragons teeth and get spartoi.
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Aqizzar

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Re: The NEW Future of the Fortress
« Reply #834 on: December 09, 2008, 02:44:44 am »

Mushroom Men would be an awesome underground counterpart to Treents.

I highly doubt Toady's working on anything like items spawning into creatures, but it would be great.  Like playing in an evil area and watching Bone Men rise from your littered battlefield, or Mud Men sprouting from ponds.  Or some kind of blob creature that spawns more of itself when killed without fires.
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Re: The NEW Future of the Fortress
« Reply #835 on: December 09, 2008, 03:38:18 am »

I think it would be interesting if every plump helmet spawn had a small chance to grow into a vicious Plump Helmet Man. Or if that only happened in certain special highly magical areas.

That's actually a really nice idea. :)
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Toady One

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Re: The NEW Future of the Fortress
« Reply #836 on: December 09, 2008, 04:17:43 am »

Question for Toady: Will the new soldier changes let us stop a soldier from what they're doing? Or at least let us change their priorities mid-combat?

You'll be able to do more with them, but I don't really like the mind control stuff.  I'll have more specifics when I get there and see how it's working out.  The squad control goal for this release is to give you the ability to low-hassle defend your fortress if you are prepared and to accomplish local missions without anything really annoying happen unless it's actually your fault.  Whether that means dwarves won't chase groundhogs instead of a goblin invader is unclear, as there are more pressing concerns as it stands, with things like food breaks and huddling around wounded commanders and all that.

now that all objects have a proper size, will throwing damage be fixed ?

It'll certainly be changed, not so much because of any object changes, but because of the tissue changes, but I'm not sure if all of the projectile problems will be fixed this time around, as I'm not to that yet and some of it has to do with projectile skill problems.

Now that creatures can have non-standard materials for their parts will this allow dual purpose for them?

For example will a being with a skeleton made of Iron be capable of making both rather strong Bone armor and be capable of having its bones melted down into Iron?
...
If someone's skin was made out of Jewels, could you cut it into gems or turn it into extravegant leather?

There is still some reliance on item type in the jobs -- so a jeweler is looking for a rough "boulder" type item for gem cutting.  In the same way, the leather working could make the skin into an extravagant leather, even though tanning shouldn't really work at all.  You'll be able to melt down any "metal" class object, which would include the bones of a creature that happen to be metal.  The boneworker will be able to work them (again relying on the "bones" item type), even though that's a bit weird given that the material isn't actually bone.  It's all a work in progress as usual.  I imagine in the future (way after this release), it'll treat some of these scenarios more rationally, but in general, yeah, you'll be able to do more things than before.

My question; Will just about everything become materials? Dwarfs will the made out of muscle and bone and whatnot, but will objects be able to be made out of "dwarf" material?

In general, yeah, though an example would let me clarify.

Speaking of which. Toady, PLEEESE add value tags for ALL materials and items! If you can't bother to do all items, do it for the weapons at least! Making new weapons balanced is such a PITA without the ability to alter their prices...

I'd prefer entity-specific value modifiers for materials and items.

There will be value tags for all of the materials this time around.  I'm probably not going to change the item raws, as the future of the value system is up in the Caravan Arc, which is finally (partially) on dev-next though that doesn't put it exactly close.  In general, the value will depending on all sorts of things like availability and usefulness and civ aesthetics (it's already been doing this last one for a while during trade, though it's still hard-coded based on some of the civ flags), and I doubt a [VALUE:#] will survive the process.  It'll probably be more like the army strength calculations for creatures (without the megabeast death part), where all of the little numbers come together to define the usefulness, and they are filtered through entity ethics-style stuff to attain aesthetic value, and then availability comes up during the world gen and in-play trade sim, though I haven't really thought too much about the specifics as it's quite a way off.
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Sean Mirrsen

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Re: The NEW Future of the Fortress
« Reply #837 on: December 09, 2008, 04:25:25 am »

For the weapons, maybe at least make their "value" relate to the amount of material it takes to make them? And after all, armor still has a value tag.

It's just that I don't like handaxes and hatchets being worth as much as broadaxes and halberds. And I don't want my woodworker to lug a halberd around just because they are "more bang for the same buck" at embark.
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Patarak

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Re: The NEW Future of the Fortress
« Reply #838 on: December 09, 2008, 06:00:15 am »

And regarding Toady's comments towards the metal bones and stuff, I assume that if someone was to have skin made out of bone, it would not be selected for a bonecarving task?




As for my material example, I would say have a creature who's bones are made out of the dwarf material. Not the dwarf bones, but bones made out of dwarf.

And if this were to come into fruition, would I be able to make some monstrosity with bones and muscle and such made out of the creature's own material?
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Sean Mirrsen

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Re: The NEW Future of the Fortress
« Reply #839 on: December 09, 2008, 06:20:16 am »

There's the question then. WHICH dwarf material? Because if I understand right, you can make a creature with bones made of dwarf BONE material (dwarf bones), or dwarf EYE material, or dwarf BRAIN material, and so forth. If by "dwarf material" you mean dwarf MEAT, then it will just as well be possible.

I really don't understand your second "monstrosity with bones and muscle of the creature's own material". If you make a creature with bones that copy dwarf bones, then another creature with the bones of that creature would still be the same dwarf-material bones. That's how referencing should work, in any case.

edit: unless of course referencing the creature materials will just copy the properties, and leave the reference alone. Then you will only be able to make a creature with bones that have the same properties as dwarf bones, and then another creature with the same properties of bones, but in every case the name of the bone material would match that of the creature.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2008, 06:23:37 am by Sean Mirrsen »
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Multiworld Madness Archive:
Game One, Discontinued at World 3.
Game Two, Discontinued at World 1.

"Europe has to grow out of the mindset that Europe's problems are the world's problems, but the world's problems are not Europe's problems."
- Subrahmanyam Jaishankar, Minister of External Affairs, India
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