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[Maximum Spin]

I don't really trust juicebox here. Why should I believe his wincon is to kill Imp when he has lied about it once already?

[TricMagic]

There would be no reason to bite me right? What made you decide that I was the best target Juice? Was it the singing...

[TricMagic]

Well, the base plan does end with juice dead and eaten. Claps. I see no issue so long as you keep to it.

[Maximum Spin]

I'm just gonna hold on Yes. Sure, you guys can stop it. But do you really need to?

[FallacyofUrist]

Verm mentioned a modifier he gets after getting 3 nibbles, but it's not clear if that is sharable, maybe FoU can borrow it after Verm has it, or maybe there's some other way to get FoU that last modifier that I don't know exists.

Even if it's not meant to be sharable, I can still copy it using my Mirror Stance, as long as Verm acts upon me while they possess it.

[Imp]

Verm mentioned a modifier he gets after getting 3 nibbles, but it's not clear if that is sharable, maybe FoU can borrow it after Verm has it, or maybe there's some other way to get FoU that last modifier that I don't know exists.

Even if it's not meant to be sharable, I can still copy it using my Mirror Stance, as long as Verm acts upon me while they possess it.

Is that a one-shot?

Do you have any other way to act on another player that you don't really need to use/need to save that won't do much to that other player?

[Imp]

I'm just gonna hold on Yes. Sure, you guys can stop it. But do you really need to?

Some of us do.  I can find a way to win either way, however if you win before Verm targets you (and he has had zero chances to target you; Tric, FoU, and Juice decided he would not be allowed to act N0; Tric decided he would not be allowed to act N1) then Verm loses and poofs.  If he's the only way FoU can get her 4th modifier through that mirror ability, he never gets it, she can't get it - she could lose and poof when Verm loses and poofs.

Even if she doesn't lose and poof, I don't want Tric to win if Verm loses, so I probably prevent Tric from winning as long as I can.  If FoU can win before she tries to target Tric, that's a sure thing, however if FoU eats the candy I gave her or becomes a vamp then she meets my win condition and if it's just Juice, Tric, and FoU still in play then I win and poof.  Which helps Tric win, but means Juice loses and poofs.

People could decide to vote me out today instead of Yes, but that means Tric loses, Verm loses because Tric poofed, good chance FoU loses because Verm may be needed for her to get that 4th modifier -

There's a lot of risk for a lot of peoples' wincons if we yes you today.

[Imp]

How's this look to everyone?

Presumptions:  Juice can win while dead, just needs me to be dead before I win.  Anyone who can win while dead can also win after being eaten by Verm.  There is no alignment change in play; nobody lied about their wincon or loss conditions.

Verm eats dead CM D2.  Elim Juice D2.  Verm targets Tric N2 (no wound on Vamp).  I cancel my plan to squash Tric's actions.  Tric feeds on FoU and does whatever to Imp (hope it's not too disruptive).

Tric wins D3.  No undead left in play; CM wins D3.  Verm eats dead Juice. Elim Imp.  Juice wins N3.  Fou turns Vamp N3 and feeds on Verm; Verm targets Max.  FoU hopefully achieves the last needed way to get the 4th modifier somehow (I don't know what this is)

Vote Yes D4.  Verm eats dead Imp.  Max wins N4.  Imp wins N4.  Verm targets FoU.  FoU eats the candy N4, gaining 2 modifiers, I hope this gives FoU 4.

I sure hope FoU wins D5.  Verm wins D5.

Snags:  What delayed actions about to happen from Juice, which may/may not cause additional early undead.
Snags:  I don't know how FoU gets that 4th modifier, hopefully FoU knows or someone shares.  Hope it didn't die with CM.
Snags:  If anyone lied about their wincon, they may not like this plan.
Snags:  Tric might want to remind me not to roar at a dragon, and might be able to meddle with me somehow N2 in a way that harms 1+ wincons.

Here's a possible plan that prioritizes Max winning ASAP.  If Tric plays nice, it requires 1 extra day instead of ending D5.  If Tric wants to mess around further, it requires being played out all the way to D7 (but everyone still wins, including Tric; I'm not motivated enough to look for the path where only Tric loses [It probably can be found, I just love the idea of everyone who can winning and rewarding honesty and cooperation where possible, I don't even wanna look for it]).

I am not as happy with this plan, it has some wiggle room for error and less people alive to fix mistakes if any.  I must die before I win or Juice is forced to lose.  With so many folks not undead it's easier to get the undead out fast so CM can win early - Juice and Tric are our only known undead in play.  Getting rid of them both ASAP removes most of the chaos from the game and makes the end smooth and fast, with plenty of flexibility if Tric throws one last wrench his final night with the first plan I suggested.
But here's the fastest way everyone can win if we get Max out ASAP:

Verm eats dead CM D2.  Elim Juice D2.  Verm targets Max N2.  I squash Tric actions and FoU agrees not to target Tric .

Vote Yes D3.  Verm eats dead Juice .  Max wins N3.  I pin Tric again and FoU targets Tric with something that is NOT MIRROR; alternatively we allow Tric to act - it's kind if Tric will agree to feed on BOTH FoU and Verm.  Verm targets Tric .

Tric wins D4.  CM wins D4.  Elim Imp D4 but only if Tric actually fed on BOTH FoU and Verm .  Juice wins N4.  Imp wins N4 as both Verm and FoU become vamps.   FoU mirrors Verm.  Verm targets FoU.

Verm eats dead Imp D5.  Verm wins N5. FoU eats her candy for the last two modifers needed N5.  (this is needed to be delayed to here, my candy means FoU would paralyze Verm whenever she targets him.  FoU can't eat my candy before she uses her mirror on Verm or else Verm is forced to lose; FoU can eat that candy any night so this is just an exercise in patience)

FoU wins D6.
IF Tric didn't feed on both FoU and Verm then he probably didn't feed on either, here's how we'd fix that mess:

Tric wins D4.  CM wins D4.  We shake our heads at Tric for not having helped speed up this mass win.  Imp turns FoU into a vamp N4 (FoU is vamp as of D5).  Verm targets FoU N4.

Elim Imp D5.  Juice wins N5.  FoU mirrors Verm N5.

Verm eats dead Imp D6.  Verm wins N6. Imp wins N6.  FoU eats candy N6, having been a hero to delay winning this long so others could win too.

FoU wins D7.

If someone lied or didn't mention some crucial detail about their wincon or loss conditions, just speak up.

The biggest wildcard might be whatever delayed actions are coming from Juice because of Tric's tricks.

What are the odds, if Juice lied about his wincon and doesn't correct it today while plans can be made, that these plans randomly meet Juice's wincon?  If it does, who cares, nobody loses, be sneaky and tricky for fun, we all still win!  Juice's role in this plan has the least room for doing stuff that could change things.

Tric's further tricks could be a delay, if there are further tricks from Tric.  I hope Tric agrees to make this easy.

I do really need to hear from Tric if Juicebox's delayed actions happen after Juice's death today or if death stops them;

I need to hear if Juice can win while dead;

I need to hear what Juicebox's delayed actions are in case Tric doesn't tell us if they happen after Juice-death or not, or if Tric's still being tricky there.

I need to hear any mistakes folks see in the plans, any outright refusals for people to follow their scripts, any other curveballs or surprises we get coming.

FoU, preemptive huge gratitude if you follow the plan.  It asks the most of your patience to ensure everyones' win.  Thanks to all who choose to permit a group win.

[Imp]

If mirror stance from FoU is a passive, not FoU targetting someone, this gets more complex to ensure CM can win.

But we need a win check after Tric and Juice are not living players where nobody else is undead/vampire.  So if FoU is passively gonna mirror any modifiers at all times, it may not be possible for CM to win, though everyone else can.

Any other surprises or weirdnesses in how and when stuff works, useful to know.

"Everyone's waiting for the next surprise" and all.

[juicebox]

I don't really trust juicebox here. Why should I believe his wincon is to kill Imp when he has lied about it once already?

I only lied about my wincon so as not to arouse suspicion from CM. Now that their gone, I no longer have any reason to hide anything. Like I said, I'm very willing to cooperate.

[Imp]

I don't really trust juicebox here. Why should I believe his wincon is to kill Imp when he has lied about it once already?

I only lied about my wincon so as not to arouse suspicion from CM. Now that their gone, I no longer have any reason to hide anything. Like I said, I'm very willing to cooperate.

I note that Juice hasn't said he needs to be alive to win, or otherwise complained about anything being discussed.

However, he also hasn't told us what actions of his were delayed, so we can build a plan around them.   

To my thinking, if Juice works with us then I fight for him to win.  If he tries to make people lose on purpose (like doesn't give needed info accurately and usefully when he can) then I try to make him lose on purpose.  Not that different than with how I feel towards Tric this game.  Was harm done?  If not, no harm, no foul, let's all win.  Was harm done?  Hrm, maybe gonna work to harm y'back.

Juice is gonna be really vulnerable.  I expect he is elim D2 and he's also eaten as soon as possible after that elim, which reduces the chaos he can cause after death if he has some special way to do that (Some of us can do things not normally allowed in the rules for most of us, baked into our roles; I have no idea if Juice can do that).

I can try to win before I die or after.  If Juice works with us I commit work towards death before I win, that's already built into every plan I already drew up and it harms none for me to die before I win.  I like being consistent and predictable when possible, I like being Gervase when given free choice.  We're going to have future games together.  I'd like people open to considering working with me - careful as they need to be, as I may someday have a wincon that means I must harm/lie/whatever.  But I don't do that stuff for fun, just for need or.... as a mirror.  Be evil towards me/mine, face evil from me and those I can inspire to act with me, even if I have free choice (though I may let confused, weak, harmless evil attempts go, viewing that as a chance to learn and have choices we all might like better later.  Really though, make us think you're trying to mess us up, find out that I'm actually dangerous and just choosing to be nice).

We have a chance the cult is real.  If so, I guess its only members are Tric and Juice.  We can apparently elim Juice today, I think I can pin Tric.  We can elim Tric tomorrow (sorry you wait so long Max) and they can both get eaten.

I'm not super happy with either Juice's or Tric's answer about that mech related to the delay of actions; heck Tric being able to act or not in a way Juice likes can be 'delayed actions' done by Tric in Juice's service, with some other explanation for why Tric didn't poof when expected to have won.

I don't know what's going on.

But I bet we can handle it, if we choose.  No more Mr. Nice Players, or are you actually going to cooperate with more than the statement 'I will cooperate'?

[Imp]

Really though, make us think you're trying to mess us up, find out that I'm actually dangerous and just choosing to be nice).

Eyeroll, corrected URL.

[TricMagic]

Juice has no reason to lie unless they're already lying. You're willing to fall on your own sword so they can win. Still no answers given without restraint.

[Imp]

Sure hope I don't need to play like this wizard.

This does seem to be the plan for today that makes sense to me.  Juicebox

We have less than 24 hours to end of day.  Some people, if honest, lose if 'yes' is voted today.  I'm cool either way, I expect to see some people move to help themselves.  Maybe this game is way deeper than I suspect, I dunno how many lies we face.

My fall back and punt plan is I just try to save my own wincon, period.  I have a lot of ways to do that, including if we vote Yes today.  It literally is a preference and if loads of people are lying about their wincons thus don't behave as predicted to try and save themselves, that's cool.  The more powerful and deceptive I realize folks probably are, the less like Gervase I feel:

"When there is need or danger
He gives his help to all in need,
And pledges to defend them,
And every helpless creature knows,
He lives but to defend them"

I can remember that's a choice, not a need for me this game.  If Verm doesn't need or want help that apparently was needed, clearly Max would like out.

Juice has no reason to lie unless they're already lying. You're willing to fall on your own sword so they can win. Still no answers given without restraint.

if Juice dies today, do those delayed actions still happen?  That's my outstanding question to you, Tric.

[TricMagic]

Not a question I asked since it didn't really matter much. Asked.