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[NJW2000]

It was a mod error, I forgot to remove their name as a vote count option. CrystalizedMire remains dead.

[TricMagic]

Though at that point Juicebox will probably sweep the rest of the game unhindered since they can murder whoever they targeted last night. Which leaves us at 3 with the last two being stalled out by Juice's 2 votes.

Hey Tric, I'm confused.  Would you walk me through the mechanics of what's going on in the hypothetical you describe?  And what wincon you understand Juice is chasing.

Juicebox bit both of us I'm assuming. Though even if just me tommorow the delayed action will trigger. Juice can double down to deal 2 wounds, killing their targets. If we voted someone out today, that means there are 3 left, one of which is probably you.

The kicker is of course that if you're a vampire, they've bit three people, and so for every vamp currently alive in the game they gain a vote. With 3 people remaining it will tie. They can then theoretically repeat nights as needed until a new vamp is created, and gain the last vote needed to vote out the remaining people. Game over, everyone is dead or gone, they managed to live to the end. That's either an SK, Survivor, or last one standing wincon, most likely the former. Or might just ben they need all left alive to be vamps, losing CM the game and winning them the game.


As for what's going on with me and Verm.. Note I was against voting them out day 0 cause I wanted to block CM. Leave them alive, and if they targeted me lynch them D1. If they didn't they'd get blocked N1. That didn't happen.

N1 was a case that with a Vampire still around I could not have them dealing wounds and lose me the game. I only had 1 shot of my delay inspect and targeted Juice, figuring the double doctor if they survived to N2 would be useful, and it would solve the role since Juice was way too quiet. Targeting them to force a vote was not a good idea in my mind for multiple reasons. So they got blocked and I gambled on the three of you not leaving last night.

Even if they didn't interact with the songs I did day one, I recognized someone who could have helped me win. Instead they became someone who could easily cause me to lose. At the end of the day, I don't have a requirement to help people fulfill their win conditions. I just need to fulfill mine.

Max seems to have done me a favor, so no reason not to do them the same. I'd suggest you help Fal and get your win condition sorted too, cause either way tomorrow is likely the last day.

[Imp]

Tric, what is Juice's wincon?  And do you know or are you guessing?

[Imp]

for every vamp currently alive in the game they gain a vote. With 3 people remaining it will tie.

Okay.  I realize I see clear guessing there, you don't know if Juice is SK, survivor, all vamps left, or what.

The exact wording of what you got is pretty meaningful.

Please consider if it seems to exclude Juicebox from the number of vamps that give him an extra vote, if it mentions he's included in it, or if he's not mentioned at all in any way in that.

[TricMagic]

other living players with the vampire modifier. So yeah. I don't know their wincon, but they were lying their fangs off about protecting people.

[Imp]

other living players with the vampire modifier. So yeah. I don't know their wincon, but they were lying their fangs off about protecting people.

Thanks.

Juicebox, when you have time, please share what you choose.

My thoughts:

My wincon doesn't care about any one player, least about me.

I don't like how Tric treated Verm this game at all.  Helped prevent him from acting N0, directly prevented him from acting N1, near as I can tell Verm's even honest.  Didn't pick a fight with Tric, didn't try to make Tric lose - Tric went very paranoid on Verm and still is and is blaming Verm too.

Tric, I hate that, I think it's bad for the game, I hope you do that very rarely.  People can quit over stuff like that.  And not just your targets, it looks like bullying and I really don't like it, it's not needed, it's not true, and it literally can drive people out of the game.

For my wincon I need to decide a few things, mostly who the last player(s) in play will be.  I need to ensure they're monster status.

I'm sure Tric's currently monster status.

I'm sure anyone who has a bite and wound gained N1 is gonna be monster status (plus more cool stuff) N2.

I kinda really think Juice probably isn't [vampire] himself and maybe isn't currently monster status either.

Max probably leaves play very soon, maybe today.

Verm requires precise and perfect support to have any chance to not lose probably today, presuming he's honest.

I'm not sure where FoU is at with her modifiers, or if she was fully honest about that either.


Let's see.  If we elim Tric (not sure we can) and don't 'yes' Max this day either (not sure that can be avoided either, and dang how patient can anyone expect Max to be?), I still have no idea if FoU is about to win N2 and no idea if Juicebox is about to make everything harder and/or about to insta-win (moot point then).

I presume if friendly Juice hoped Tric would bite Verm; I have no idea how friendly Juice is but clearly Tric would rather stomp and destroy Verm than help Verm even slightly while also helping tric-self.  That sucks; reward quality good play and punish harmful, antisocial play.  But that presumes one has the power to do any such thing.

If I totally give up on Verm then I suppose I might help 'yes' Max out, presuming that's what yes does and if it's even needed; it might not be (if there isn't a vote-war very few votes are enough unless Max explains otherwise).

Juicebox, it would hugely help me and not harm you if you tell us if you already have monster status or not.  I know there's a chance you might lie, but I hope you know you have no reason to about that.  If you don't have it I probably want to give it to you; if you do have it I eagerly want to do other things.  Some idea of how soon you win is also useful, like 'definitely not N2' or 'yep, probably N2'.

[TricMagic]

Imp, I'll note I'm not the one that commuted Vern. And juice is very much a vampire unless you "cured" that.

Assume I bite Vern. Juice bites two people, Vern visits one of them. If that person is someone I haven't visited, they die. I am then entirely reliant on you to actually do anything, if Vern doesn't just gobble them up. Not counting the fact that stated facts don't always match up with the reality. Juice kinda proves the point. Nothing stopping Vern from being a redirector, in which case I'm probably screwed tonight anyway...

You want everyone to win, but news flash, that isn't actually possible. There will be at least 1 loser. You can consider this the darker side of the dragon. I help only insofar as it benefits. Cult leaders have to pick and choose too. I'm sorta wondering why no CM revive honestly, cause they are getting eaten today.

[TricMagic]

Being honest I'm surprised no one jumped on me when my song charades fell through due to misreading. That was specifically anti-town.

[FallacyofUrist]

Fal, how are you doing with your modifiers collections, do you think you're gonna need (more) help?  Are you potentially willing to in general help other people win if it won't make you lose, or would you rather those-not-yourself lose, or do you wanna play like nobody else matters either way?

Well, so far, I don't have any role modifiers, but I have your candy and Spin's candy to give me two role modifiers, so that's halfway there. I don't mind cooperating to help others win as long as it doesn't oppose my own win condition.

[VermilionSkies]

Tric, there is no town.
This is more of a puzzle game than any traditional game of mafia.
There are varying levels of 'being able to win with others,' but nobody has any reason to behave like they're town here.
The reason I'm so open this game is because I was given a difficult conditional that nonetheless didn't require me to remove anyone else from the game to win.

[Imp]

Imp, I'll note I'm not the one that commuted Vern.

Tric, as I see it you, Juice, and CM voted for Verm to have no action N0.  Fair enough as a single act.

You opened with voting him, pushed him most of D0.  Fair enough, sets a pattern, may be fine.

You also, for no apparently good reason other than 'fun for you/you decided to read stuff as scary' decided to ensure that Verm can't act N1, without saying you were going to ensure that (so I could make a choice such as to use my vamp 1-shot on him, also preventing him from acting, but making it much more possible for him to catch up) - but then you roll into D2 with posts that make it sound like you're blaming Verm for your treatment of Verm.

This is fine if your wincon somehow requires it.  Otherwise I mean my objections.  You marked Verm all game for failure; fine if that's actually part of your wincon, otherwise you're playing cruelly in a way unneeded and unjustified.

That said.

And juice is very much a vampire unless you "cured" that.

Why do you believe or know Juice is a vampire?  I have no cure for vampirism.

However, [vampire] acts 2x per night. If this is Juice and if he needs 3 vamps to 'win' (win what?  He can vote a lot, he can bite a lot, if he can bite 2x start of game there's only 6 other players in the game; his vote power makes no sense if he needs vamps to win.  Clearly he needs votes to win, I think?  He needs vamps for votes.  And he needs to make 3 to have his vote power.  He should have 2 right now.

CM had garlic candy.  If they're eaten it's announced by the mod.  I am sure because she did give me one D1, I got it last night.  Nobody in this game has eaten a garlic candy, we'd know.

I have never been bitten.  Verm claims no bite yet, if I understand right.

At worst, if Juice is a [vampire], he bit CM and Tric N0, Max and FoU N1.  He gets his vote powers starting D2.  But CM never told us she had a bite.  I think she would have.  And we haven't heard other players claiming bites.

I think Juice is something that can create bites like a vampire, and he may be some role or alignment vampire, but I think he is not [vampire] the modifier.  I think he can only bite 1 person per night, and picked Tric N0 and probably Max N1, though I am guessing about that.  But there's also a chance he's something that produces vampires by bites without even being a monster status.  What that is, not sure, but I think there's a chance it exists.

Tric, can you set my mind to ease and help me understand how you know, not guess, he's a [vampire]?  Because there's zero evidence he bit me or Verm (I think Verm would say if he had a bite).  I think Max getting a bite would make Max say 'right, we done, out of here, no more fooling around' - which is what I think I see in Max.  And FoU maybe wouldn't mention it, but I think maybe would.

If that person is someone I haven't visited, they die.

Nah.  I didn't see fit to reveal that vamps and vamp bite targets are essentially immune to wounds because I feared CM might use that in a way I didn't like and I wasn't sure we were gonna elim her right off.  So I get your fear; but you should understand now that anyone a vamp bites first is safe from further injury.

And I said D0 that anyone who gets multiple wounds same phase is safe; wound prevents other wounds the same phase.  Since you've had a wound you can read that, right?  You got to see the wound status, right?

So if 6 of us all go wound the same person N0, they get a wound and are alive D1.  And if one of the wounds is a bite, they turn vamp start of N1, even if we all try to wound them again N1 they vamp first.

heck, my curing a wound happens before new wounds too.  So does my giving vamp status (which also cures wounds).  This is a minimally deadly game through night wounds.

Cult leaders have to pick and choose too. I'm sorta wondering why no CM revive honestly, cause they are getting eaten today.

Who do you believe does that revive?  You apparently inspected the 'cult leader'.  They got a revive?  They want their arch enemy alive?

I have a revive.  Why would I want CM alive?  If I wanted her alive, I'd have fought her death harder.  I don't even know my revive would work on her.

Being honest I'm surprised no one jumped on me when my song charades fell through due to misreading. That was specifically anti-town.

It's a bring your own alignment.

I'm probably the only person here who requested 'town' as part of their alignment, and I decided not to kill any of you scummy folk because my vision of a town's big enough for all of you; I just don't want you beating each others' heads in unnecessarily.

[TricMagic]

I know cause I got everything but the win condition. The entire role cop.

[Imp]

Fal, how are you doing with your modifiers collections, do you think you're gonna need (more) help?  Are you potentially willing to in general help other people win if it won't make you lose, or would you rather those-not-yourself lose, or do you wanna play like nobody else matters either way?

Well, so far, I don't have any role modifiers, but I have your candy and Spin's candy to give me two role modifiers, so that's halfway there. I don't mind cooperating to help others win as long as it doesn't oppose my own win condition.

Thank Mod.

Okay, so.  Do you have any wounds or bites?

My idea is that we check in with Max and see if Max is willing to wait another night before we vote yes.  Which is incredible if Max does.

If so, I say we elim either Tric or Juicebox.  That's not strictly necessary, especially if Juicebox cooperates a lot and we believe him; I might.  His undead hunter's gone.  About to be not coming back.  He can see what he's already seen of us.  He knows some things about me.  With 3 of us in play, if Verm or FoU will side with me to help ensure a tie vote so that Juice can't be elim, long as Juice is someone can be saved.  Tric is very, very, very ahead in the race.  I say let Verm catch up.  I say elim Tric, saves some extra work, unless we have to pin both Juice and Tric; if we do, elim Juice and I'll handle the pin.

If we trust Juice, we don't HAVE to elim Tric, I am pretty sure I can pin Tric.  But him dead 1-2 nights means I can do other things if seems useful.  I'm open to discussion on that.

The point is not to eat Tric even if we kill him.  It's not totally worked out, but some night before the end I bring Tric back to life if needed and that all sorts out.  But Tric would still need FoU before FoU goes.

N2 Verm targets Max, we yes Max D3 and bye Max.  N3 Verm targets maybe Tric and we let Tric leave N4; I am pinning Tric until Verm is safe and if this kills Tric, I think Tric earned it.  Plus I can say it's for my wincon; Tric is monster status.  I keep Tric in play until I win; nicely done for me and grrrr maybe don't bully the cooperative honest players Imp likes in games Imp is in.

That's probably Tric's fate this game even if we Yes Max now, lose Verm today, not sure how and if FoU has a chance to win or poofs too with them gone, and not sure what Juice is doing and if I need to monster status him or not.

But Tric can be my ace under my boot until then, I can vent some stress and practice dragonning the dragon or whatever.

I know cause I got everything but the win condition. The entire role cop.

I presume Max, FoU, and Verm do not currently have monster status; based on Tric's claims about Juice, Juice does.  I'd still love confirmation though.

That's my clock.  Best I can do, work around it, right now I think I prefer to pin Tric more than I prefer any other method I can use to try to move towards my wincon.

[TricMagic]

if you think you can slay the dragon, go ahead little imp.
all the pieces on the board, all you need to do is Act.
try and Spare us all you like, you can't Save everyone.
there isn't any LOVE in this world. unless you can prove me wrong?

[Imp]

tap tap tap tap. The vampire went down to Georgia. He was lookin' for blood to steal. He was in a bind 'cause he was way behind, and he was willin' to make a deal, when he came across this young man sawin' on a fiddle and playin' it hot. And the vampire jumped up on a hickory stump and said, "Boy, let me tell you what. I guess you didn't know it but I'm a fiddle player, too. And if you'd care to take a dare, I'll make a bet with you. Now, you play pretty good fiddle, boy, but give the monster his due. I'll bet a fiddle of gold against your soul, 'cause I think I'm better than you." The boy said, "My name's Tric, and it might be a sin. But I'll take your bite, you're gonna regret, 'cause I'm the best that's ever been."

Y'know, the devil went back to Georgia.  We both maaaaybe might still win.

if you think you can slay the dragon, go ahead little imp.
all the pieces on the board, all you need to do is Act.
try and Spare us all you like, you can't Save everyone.
there isn't any LOVE in this world. unless you can prove me wrong?

I had a happier in character song I hoped to use, but this one fits today so far.