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[TricMagic]

FallacyofUrist, you're still doing the thing...

fallacy is town though

I believe in negative reinforcement.

Suppose that's a good thing then. Still sorry given my plan is a gambler's plan, but you seem to have one too.

[Imp]

Is mafia kill usually not free on mafia universe or something? And did nobody read the bullet directly above the discord link y'all clicked in the OP? I'm bumfuzzled. Can everyone please take a minute to thoroughly read the first post of the thread? It'll be helpful if everyone knows the rules of the game we're playing.

Yeah, we're pretty much a homebrew, I had to adjust to a lot of stuff that was absolutely foreign to me when I went to MU to prep for champs.

Every mod basically sets their own rules, it's a good idea to carefully read every one, but even there, not every mod follows every rule fully or interprets it exactly the same - this is EP as mod and not a bastard game, chances are high every rule is as-stated but there's also the 'traditional B12 stuff' like how you pointed out cryptography's not forbidden.  Unspoken rules are all over.

Some of us are not nearly as concerned about if that mafia kill was free or not as you appear to be - I had read that, and not even filed it in my memory.  I don't expect generic mafiakill to be free or cost, I don't expect the mafia to have or not have other actions, perhaps including complex, awesome, free-or-not non-generic mafiakills.  I personally have had a role where I could have claimed 7 actions as my own actions that previous night and still not admitted to 4 others, very different ones that I had actually forced other players to do in addition to their actual chosen actions (so tracking, haha, good luck).  And I was town with that.

So yes, the rules matter and matter a lot, but there's so much about the actual abilities we have and how we use them... that's where my deeper focus is, personally.  Makes total sense for a newer player to deeply focus on the rules as written, and want us all to.

I've lost a bunch of games just from town not reading the rules. I've also caught scum who were pretending to not have read the rules. I'm not as fixated on them as you seem to believe I am, though, despite us talking a lot about this now. I do have a town read on you despite what I mentioned.

What's more concerning though is that your readslist basically pans out to nothing. Can you summarize your reads by just giving me a list of town and scum, without reasoning? I would prefer if you didn't include all of the players, obviously.

Nope - mostly nope.  Of the people I can read and read well - nope.  There is not 1 player here beside myself that I would bet the game on being town unless I had no other choice.  Currently I have other choices - more time before I have to make any bets like that.

Every single player here could fox me at this point in the game.  You're my strongest 'this could be scum' read, and I'd like you to be town and can see how you could be town and playing as you are, and I am very against your easy elim for you being unknown and playing unusually.  That said, you could be scum and if you're consensus elim and fail to prevent that, I don't have any info that would make me say 'not Mater, not D1.'

Most of the people here have seen me play a few times.  I suspect I could say "Because of my role and information that I should not share yet, we need to elim X today." and get seriously listened to even if we end up not doing that.  I essentially did a similar thing in a previous game D1 and made it happen (it was VERY hard and Max was a defending fellow scum which made it even harder to make happen) and it was arguably the scariest scumrole possible that we flipped .... I can't imagine a scarier one, maybe there are worse but in a game with 12 players, 3 scum, and 1 survivor-like weird third party, that anti-town player could unlock 7 mafiakill per night and potentially have that unlock by N2, and I caught him by understanding my role, the game's potential, his playstyle - and CrystalizedMire that game called me 'the towniest town that ever towned'.

I wasn't super useful past D1, in terms of catching scum.  The rest of town did the rest of the elims, I focused on the edge cases and the 'omg, if we're in trouble this is the trouble' and everyone else town solved the rest of the game around me and the baddies.

So, my reads, this game especially, D1 with how we've played so far - ehh, I am 100% sure most of us are town.  I'm saying what matters to me and making it clear what I want to see happen in the future.  I've made offers, both to explore if someone wants to volunteer telling us all either:

1) if they unlock/improve in some way by either giving 'items' (doesn't matter what the item is), or by giving 'items', (doesn't matter what the item is), or by specifically getting or giving 'fruit' that has no use I know of,
2) I've invited anyone to target me with a non-lethal ability if they don't have a preferred other thing to do N1 (it's totally cool that some folks do other stuff, I'd like at least 1 person to target me, more than one are fine, all 10 or 11 of you is fine but I don't recommend or prefer it, it's not needed and if you have something more useful to do N1, do it, really) and I specifically request Vermilion to target me N1 if willing.

D1, that stuff is more important to me than my own personal reads, though I'm listening/thinking/feeling checking us all out super carefully.  If I live very long, same as the rest of us, the game will unfold as things happen.  Things will happen D2 because of me if I live to N1 and am targeted by at least 1 player N1, which I've tried to ensure happens.  This should be easily and clearly discussable D2+ even if I'm dead before D2, and I think I'm making useful contributions to the game - in this case more useful than the reads I literally don't have at this moment.

See, I learned I can't reliably catch CM D1.  I can't reliably catch MS D1.  I haven't seen evil Tric yet that I can remember, but right now I'm not sure I can catch him D1 either.  Fallacy?  Uhh, probably not.  You?  Maybe.  Maybe not.

Some games as town I'ma hunt, right or wrong, and that's my focus.  This game, you see my focus.  I'll do my best every moment I play though, promise!

[Imp]

Show of hands on whether I should do something really stupid and dangerous that MIGHT win the game?

I'm more focused and concerned about 'could it lose town the game'?

I like this game and don't really want it over early.

I loved CYOS and wanted it over INSTANTLY as soon as I felt I understood it because I was that scared of what evil in that game could be   I never felt Web was my evil counterpart and spent the whole game plotting against his evil big brother, my actual theoretical counterpart

If you want to gamble on something that doesn't instantly lose the game and may help, go for it.  I essentially have made 1+ of those gambles this game myself as well.  I have nothing that can instantly win, but what I have are gambles and may or may not help, but you have your abilities and may have options I lack.

Though you didn't say 'instantly'.  I don't object to you doing you-stuff, until and unless I think you're guiding towards a town loss, then I do all the stuff we'd predict, as will everyone else.

Do you think it's worth the risks you can predict?

[Imp]

Reading things, fairly confident this is a TOWN IMP. There isn't any hesitation in their posts. They're got good gut feelings from what I've seen. ... Not much else to say, just putting it out there. Good luck changing my mind on that point.

That said I'm unlikely to bother investigating them as a result. Feel like it's a waste to check their abilities, though imp could convince me otherwise it's a random check of 1 of the non-autos.
Also find it funny no one commented on that bit.

It triggered in me a furious brief thought about if this ability might be more likely to be in the hands of pro-town or anti-town.  It then made me think about what harm to town it could maybe cause in the hands of anti-town, and what benefit to town it could maybe have in the hands of town.

I didn't solve that.  I appreciated you mentioning it.  Anyone with a clearly scummy ability or fear they have such might think you're worth their time.  That's brave of you if you're not team evil and I appreciate you playing like you play.

Then I went back to my own schemes and calculations, and of course you and everything I notice about you is part of that, same as everyone.

[Maximum Spin]

I'm more focused and concerned about 'could it lose town the game'?

I like this game and don't really want it over early.

I loved CYOS and wanted it over INSTANTLY as soon as I felt I understood it because I was that scared of what evil in that game could be   I never felt Web was my evil counterpart and spent the whole game plotting against his evil big brother, my actual theoretical counterpart

If you want to gamble on something that doesn't instantly lose the game and may help, go for it.  I essentially have made 1+ of those gambles this game myself as well.  I have nothing that can instantly win, but what I have are gambles and may or may not help, but you have your abilities and may have options I lack.

Though you didn't say 'instantly'.  I don't object to you doing you-stuff, until and unless I think you're guiding towards a town loss, then I do all the stuff we'd predict, as will everyone else.

Do you think it's worth the risks you can predict?

It wouldn't win the game or lose it all at once, but it could put us in a much better or worse position depending on how well town and scum play, potentially with a lot of emphasis on "much". So far my main focus has been thinking about when the right time to use my abilities is.

I think I'm gonna do it, but I'm really counting on you guys to, you know, do a good job.

[Magma Mater]

Is mafia kill usually not free on mafia universe or something? And did nobody read the bullet directly above the discord link y'all clicked in the OP? I'm bumfuzzled. Can everyone please take a minute to thoroughly read the first post of the thread? It'll be helpful if everyone knows the rules of the game we're playing.

Yeah, we're pretty much a homebrew, I had to adjust to a lot of stuff that was absolutely foreign to me when I went to MU to prep for champs.

Every mod basically sets their own rules, it's a good idea to carefully read every one, but even there, not every mod follows every rule fully or interprets it exactly the same - this is EP as mod and not a bastard game, chances are high every rule is as-stated but there's also the 'traditional B12 stuff' like how you pointed out cryptography's not forbidden.  Unspoken rules are all over.

Some of us are not nearly as concerned about if that mafia kill was free or not as you appear to be - I had read that, and not even filed it in my memory.  I don't expect generic mafiakill to be free or cost, I don't expect the mafia to have or not have other actions, perhaps including complex, awesome, free-or-not non-generic mafiakills.  I personally have had a role where I could have claimed 7 actions as my own actions that previous night and still not admitted to 4 others, very different ones that I had actually forced other players to do in addition to their actual chosen actions (so tracking, haha, good luck).  And I was town with that.

So yes, the rules matter and matter a lot, but there's so much about the actual abilities we have and how we use them... that's where my deeper focus is, personally.  Makes total sense for a newer player to deeply focus on the rules as written, and want us all to.

I've lost a bunch of games just from town not reading the rules. I've also caught scum who were pretending to not have read the rules. I'm not as fixated on them as you seem to believe I am, though, despite us talking a lot about this now. I do have a town read on you despite what I mentioned.

What's more concerning though is that your readslist basically pans out to nothing. Can you summarize your reads by just giving me a list of town and scum, without reasoning? I would prefer if you didn't include all of the players, obviously.

Nope - mostly nope.  Of the people I can read and read well - nope.  There is not 1 player here beside myself that I would bet the game on being town unless I had no other choice.  Currently I have other choices - more time before I have to make any bets like that.

Every single player here could fox me at this point in the game.  You're my strongest 'this could be scum' read, and I'd like you to be town and can see how you could be town and playing as you are, and I am very against your easy elim for you being unknown and playing unusually.  That said, you could be scum and if you're consensus elim and fail to prevent that, I don't have any info that would make me say 'not Mater, not D1.'

Most of the people here have seen me play a few times.  I suspect I could say "Because of my role and information that I should not share yet, we need to elim X today." and get seriously listened to even if we end up not doing that.  I essentially did a similar thing in a previous game D1 and made it happen (it was VERY hard and Max was a defending fellow scum which made it even harder to make happen) and it was arguably the scariest scumrole possible that we flipped .... I can't imagine a scarier one, maybe there are worse but in a game with 12 players, 3 scum, and 1 survivor-like weird third party, that anti-town player could unlock 7 mafiakill per night and potentially have that unlock by N2, and I caught him by understanding my role, the game's potential, his playstyle - and CrystalizedMire that game called me 'the towniest town that ever towned'.

I wasn't super useful past D1, in terms of catching scum.  The rest of town did the rest of the elims, I focused on the edge cases and the 'omg, if we're in trouble this is the trouble' and everyone else town solved the rest of the game around me and the baddies.

So, my reads, this game especially, D1 with how we've played so far - ehh, I am 100% sure most of us are town.  I'm saying what matters to me and making it clear what I want to see happen in the future.  I've made offers, both to explore if someone wants to volunteer telling us all either:

1) if they unlock/improve in some way by either giving 'items' (doesn't matter what the item is), or by giving 'items', (doesn't matter what the item is), or by specifically getting or giving 'fruit' that has no use I know of,
2) I've invited anyone to target me with a non-lethal ability if they don't have a preferred other thing to do N1 (it's totally cool that some folks do other stuff, I'd like at least 1 person to target me, more than one are fine, all 10 or 11 of you is fine but I don't recommend or prefer it, it's not needed and if you have something more useful to do N1, do it, really) and I specifically request Vermilion to target me N1 if willing.

D1, that stuff is more important to me than my own personal reads, though I'm listening/thinking/feeling checking us all out super carefully.  If I live very long, same as the rest of us, the game will unfold as things happen.  Things will happen D2 because of me if I live to N1 and am targeted by at least 1 player N1, which I've tried to ensure happens.  This should be easily and clearly discussable D2+ even if I'm dead before D2, and I think I'm making useful contributions to the game - in this case more useful than the reads I literally don't have at this moment.

See, I learned I can't reliably catch CM D1.  I can't reliably catch MS D1.  I haven't seen evil Tric yet that I can remember, but right now I'm not sure I can catch him D1 either.  Fallacy?  Uhh, probably not.  You?  Maybe.  Maybe not.

I improve upon getting abilities. In that having 1 ability is better than having 0.

Of the people you mention in your last paragraph, Crystalizedmire is mafia, Max Spin is town, TricMagic is town, Fallacy is town, I'm town. Feel free to steal these reads if you'd like, they're pretty great.

You can say we're voting for town, but so far you haven't really shown any signs of being town.

This is patently untrue. Have you read my posts?

[Imp]

I improve upon getting abilities. In that having 1 ability is better than having 0.

Of the people you mention in your last paragraph, Crystalizedmire is mafia, Max Spin is town, TricMagic is town, Fallacy is town, I'm town. Feel free to steal these reads if you'd like, they're pretty great.

So, I can imagine telling EP that I wanted to be nothing, flat out the absence of everything, and potentially have no abilities.  I would expect to get a role PM, I can stretch my imagination really far and imagine the absence of everything means no role PM to tell me I have no role, no abilities.

Are you willing to tell us if you're surprised not to have a role PM, and if you understand why you don't?

Are you happy with what you have/lack?

I'm kinda unsure about the idea of the great nothing as a possible town ... absence of role.  I imagine it could be?  I struggle to imagine you could be that kinda thing AND town AND safe to interact with.

My mind goes here and I'm like, "I gotta call Mater 'Robert'!"  But I also wanna not get close to you, and that's... part of giving you anything.

[FallacyofUrist]

I would like to recommend that we don't get bogged down in complicated role hypotheticals and completely ignore obvious signs of behavioral scumminess.

Not that roles are irrelevant, mind you, but they can be very distracting.

Magma Mater still isn't explaining their reads. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Of the people you mention in your last paragraph, Crystalizedmire is mafia

Is CrystalizedMire the player that outed themselves according to your point of view?

FallacyofUrist, you're still doing the thing...

If you want me to actually improve you're going to have to explain what 'the thing' is.

[FallacyofUrist]

Dead gods, I forgot to close Imp's quote box. Ugh.

Magma Mater. Share who you believe outed themselves as scum, and why, and I'll unvote.

See the problem is that I have to wait for them to post more, so that I can come up with reasons that sound legitimate and reasonable to everyone else. If I post my actual reasons, you'll neither believe me nor follow my logic. So it's both counter-productive and anti-town for me to share my reasons with you.
Instead of voting for town with the petty indignance of a thousand housecats, you might discover that reading the thread and finding scum is a better use of your time. Despite what you say, juicebox does have enough posts for you to form a scumread on him, assuming you put your thinking cap on before reading them.

Ah, I missed this post. I don't know if I should reasonably accept this justification? Like, okay, if you're psychic and capable of impossible deductions, good on you, but that doesn't exactly help the rest of us, does it?

I'm uncertain whether I should read the petty aggression as a towntell or scumtell. It's certainly different than past patterns, but I'm not sure if I can make an inference off of it.

It's worth noting, I suppose.

[Imp]

You can say we're voting for town, but so far you haven't really shown any signs of being town.

This is patently untrue. Have you read my posts?

Yes.  Will you help me see how you are showing 'signs of being town'?

I suspect more than just myself might benefit and learn from your explanation.

[Maximum Spin]

FallacyofUrist, you're still doing the thing...

If you want me to actually improve you're going to have to explain what 'the thing' is.

The one where you try to be webadict but don't succeed.

"Look, isn't it cool how I'm going to tie everything back to fear? Fear is cool, isn't it? So by extension, that means I'm cool. Cool and in control. And definitely not panicking, hahaha, wouldn't that be so funny good thing it isn't true help? Sorry, did I just say help? Must have been a slip of the tongue. I'm in control. Fear. I mean fear~."

[FallacyofUrist]

I'm just going to say that I'm allowed to act in a way I think is fun, as long as I'm still trying to play the game and figure out who is scum, which I am.

I'm also curious what exactly you'd define as successfully acting like webadict.

[Maximum Spin]

I'm just going to say that I'm allowed to act in a way I think is fun, as long as I'm still trying to play the game and figure out who is scum, which I am.

I'm also curious what exactly you'd define as successfully acting like webadict.

I didn't say you weren't allowed.

[Maximum Spin]

Maybe I wasn't clear, Fallacy. I'm suggesting you should try actually being cool and in control.

[4maskwolf]

FallacyofUrist, you're still doing the thing...

If you want me to actually improve you're going to have to explain what 'the thing' is.

The one where you try to be webadict but don't succeed.

"Look, isn't it cool how I'm going to tie everything back to fear? Fear is cool, isn't it? So by extension, that means I'm cool. Cool and in control. And definitely not panicking, hahaha, wouldn't that be so funny good thing it isn't true help? Sorry, did I just say help? Must have been a slip of the tongue. I'm in control. Fear. I mean fear~."

Calling it now this is going to be the best quote of the game.

I'm actually dying over here.