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[NJW2000]

Could you provide your diagram or summarize the claims that are in conflict? I'm not sure I've got them all.

The diagram is pencil and paper, and not very neat at this point, even if I could get a clear photo.

As far as I can see though, the conflicting claims come from:

AP (and kind of Juicebox): Jail CM
You: redirect AP onto Imp
CM: be roleblocked
Me: only see AP act on CM
Imp: tracks CM

Any four of which lead to a contradiction, or at least an unknown. Assuming we can trust what Juicebox and sofa have said, as they have at least avoided contradicting other players via their combined roleclaims.

Not conflicting but hard to believe:

CM: masons with AP
AP: accepts action to jailkeep CM when CM is doctor

Granted, jailing the doctor might be sensible, or at least not a bad idea. The other stuff though...


The more I read the thread, the more I just don't believe the masons claim. Hey, it feels good not to worry about hammers... there should be more games where they don't happen.

CrystalisedMire, you need to convince a lot of people that you're actually masons with AP if you want to see the vote fall elsewhere, probably on Juicebox or a no-elim at this point. Tell me a few things.

      1. Did you have any plans for ways to use your status as masons to trip up mafia? Did AP mention any ideas like that?

      2. Why did you ask AP this question here, and vote them here until the end of D1?
      (Given you had a chat to ask in, and knew they were town)

      3. Did you tell AP you were a doctor?

[Maximum Spin]

AP (and kind of Juicebox): Jail CM
You: redirect AP onto Imp

I really don't see this as a problem at all. I redirected AP's claimed main action just fine. I can think of a couple reasonable reasons why it wouldn't redirect the second action, and if the second action was autolocked to CM, that's the easiest answer.

I'm more concerned about the issue between you and Imp.

[sofanthiel]

What use would an ability that involves stealing and ordering somebody else to apply an unknown power to another player have other than being a malicious framing tool meant to muddy the nightly accounts and confuse town?  Since I no longer find NJW's earlier claim as dubious, I'm not opposed to voting out juicebox; I caught him in the act, so he felt cornered and was forced to claim such an outlandish anti-town role.

[Maximum Spin]

I'm genuinely good with either option here.

[sofanthiel]

I'm genuinely good with either option here.

My current working theory is that maybe using that action made AP a mafia-ally.

If it is a cult virus of some kind, juicebox is likely the recruitment officer, meaning it's best we deal with him first thing.

[Imp]

AP (and kind of Juicebox): Jail CM
You: redirect AP onto Imp

I really don't see this as a problem at all. I redirected AP's claimed main action just fine. I can think of a couple reasonable reasons why it wouldn't redirect the second action, and if the second action was autolocked to CM, that's the easiest answer.

I'm more concerned about the issue between you and Imp.

Max looks very honest to me, but I know my side of it.  This doesn't confirm Max's alignment, but he's the towniest non-me person I see in play.  And he might clean my clock but this is a freaking hard game requiring high cooperation.

I am a tracker, I get to know that for sure.

If it is true that Max redirected AP into me, and true that AP is a rolecop, then I'm not surprised at all that AP got the result tracker.  That makes me believe Max redirected AP and AP is a rolecop (alignment can be anything, but I'm not seeing any lies here at all that I can catch).  AP wouldn't know he was redirected.  Max handled the reveal in a reasonably townie way - it's not even late and it's semi-spoilered early by Max in his cueing me in not to spoiler - which really to me means 'ignore you're hearing your role from AP, don't dig into this yet, I know something about it and I'm working on it'.

Alignment is who the heck knows, but there's nothing scummy there to me.  Max and AP seem to know what they should.

JB is slimy as heck.  If AP was teamed with JB from D1 then AP should not have targeted JB for rolecop and given a result JB didn't seem prepared for.  JB/AP look reasonably unteamed to me.

JB may not know CM is (I really think from CM's thread behavior, not from mech) an ally/trying to help him, but he's cooperating and trying to survive.  Or JB converted CM overnight and knows that CM is doing whatever and probably doing the "Kill CM now" dance to keep JB alive longer.

Pending what we don't know about from AP who hasn't spoken or logged into the forum in over a day (and whatever AP explains, the conflicts between CM's currrent mason-with-AP story and D1 interactions with AP look weird in many ways, from her voting him, 3rd on his wagon to him sussing her to action targeting from them both).

I'm not totally cool with NJW, but NJW could be town.  Weird feels, thoughts, responses; that could all be town.  In comparison to this JB-CM mess, sure looks townie.

Sof, thanks for being here and voting.

I am all for a swap back onto JB at any time.  We do need, need-need consensus.  4 votes to elim anyone.  I'm fine with seeing what happens when several of us vote CM, and elim CM might be the needed answer.  I just really think elim JB is more likely essential, and that JB is more likely more dangerous than CM, like Dracula's more dangerous than Renfield.

I also think that JB's known ability is 'too weak' for the only ability JB has.  I think JB can do something else too.  All the known ability does is take an action someone else was going to do (in this case Sofa to NJW) and make it either maybe not happen (maybe happen later?  JB mentioned that he didn't think AP would hold it for later) or happen if another person chooses to allow it to happen but to a target of JB's choosing (and doesn't matter if the another person is redirected, since there's tons of evidence that Max redirected AP to me, but AP 'agreeing to the Jail CM free action' didn't redirect to me.

But it's still one action, taking an action from the pool of actions and changing it.  Which is 'just a weird and complex redirect' and should be enough for 1 ability but I feel strongly there's more we don't know about JB and JB did more than that.  And/or CM is ninja/jail of CM doesn't stop CM from acting - something else weird.  So I can handle an elim of CM because there's so much wrong with CM but my scum-senses are screaming elim JB most dangerous anti-town alive.

[Crystalizedmire]

So yes, I did steal the action from Sofa to give it to AP.
I picked AP because they seemed townie to me, and because I thought that they were likely to use it and not hold it

There goes my theory that NJW was actually roleblocked. Unvote.
Wait so why did you pick someone that seemed towny to you, juicebox?

CM's active but quiet, and doesn't seem to think all that weird stuff she suddenly said is in any way defense of JB - I mean about suddenly claiming mason and that she's alignment confirmed with someone who thinks she was scummy D1 and who RB her N1 and who she didn't even claim she attempted to doctor despite this confirmed alignment because "Imp seemed townie then" that came up right after JB got the two votes.

At first, me and AP wanted to distance ourselves since I don't think it would be wise to make it obvious that we are teamed. I got frustrated at Spin's theory that I was teamed with Juicebox because I know it's not true. I know that Juicebox sent an order to AP to rb me and I know that AP rolecopped JB. Also, may you please rephrase the underlined part, I have trouble understanding what you were saying there.

CrystalisedMire, you need to convince a lot of people that you're actually masons with AP if you want to see the vote fall elsewhere, probably on Juicebox or a no-elim at this point. Tell me a few things.

      1. Did you have any plans for ways to use your status as masons to trip up mafia? Did AP mention any ideas like that?

      2. Why did you ask AP this question here, and vote them here until the end of D1?
      (Given you had a chat to ask in, and knew they were town)

      3. Did you tell AP you were a doctor?

1. No
2. We were distancing
3. Yes

[NJW2000]

What use would an ability that involves stealing and ordering somebody else to apply an unknown power to another player have other than being a malicious framing tool meant to muddy the nightly accounts and confuse town?  Since I no longer find NJW's earlier claim as dubious, I'm not opposed to voting out juicebox; I caught him in the act, so he felt cornered and was forced to claim such an outlandish anti-town role.

This is reasonable, although I think given a mason claim this implausible, scum is in CM and presumably AP. scum!CM wouldn't claim unless they did have an allegiance with AP, as otherwise AP is just going to deny it when they get to the thread. Which would make Juicebox 3p/SK if anything.

Unless there's a mafia ally or cult... yeah, if AP denies the masons thing, it looks like CM is trying to die, in which case we ignore them today. Dying to the elim is pretty often the easiest thing a mally can do, especially if they aren't told who the actual mafia is. On the other hand, if AP agrees with CM, it would have to be a three member cult or an AP/Juicebox team + CM mally. Both are technically possible but incredibly unlikely.

Or, horrific third possibility: the mason claim is true, and CM plonked her D1 vote on a townconfirmed player then revealed the mason thing the first time someone pointed their finger at her. Which would be infuriating, but we can't rule it out, which is why I'm still asking CM questions. If they're actually masons we can go straight for Juicebox.

I really don't see this as a problem at all. I redirected AP's claimed main action just fine. I can think of a couple reasonable reasons why it wouldn't redirect the second action, and if the second action was autolocked to CM, that's the easiest answer.

I'm more concerned about the issue between you and Imp.

I find the idea of a non-redirectable jailkeep action bizarre, but maybe. With me and Imp... either Imp is lying or we ended up with different targets through unrevealed redirection powers. Potentially me on Juicebox, or Imp on someone who none'd or used an untrackable action. Or the nightgame is totally unsolvable due to utmost shenanigans, but hopefully not that. I don't think Imp is lying though. They seem to be town, and it would be a very weird lie.


Going to bed now, but will be around a bit towards the end of the day. Unless AP shows up and drops a bombshell, looks like it's pretty much up to the four of us whether we go for Juicebox or CM.

Max, Imp, Sofa: If AP denies the masons claim, we're in agreement that this is an attempt by CM to draw the elim, right?

PPE: huh... I need to sleep on this, but I will reread CM's post and try to work out why masons would distance from one another.

[Maximum Spin]

Max, Imp, Sofa: If AP denies the masons claim, we're in agreement that this is an attempt by CM to draw the elim, right?

Yes, that seems like the most likely interpretation.

[Imp]

NJW, is it true that whoever you targeted was visited by AP last night?

If so, why say this?

With me and Imp... either Imp is lying or we ended up with different targets through unrevealed redirection powers. Potentially me on Juicebox

Isn't that only possible if AP actually visited Juicebox, which seems impossible despite AP's intentional target of Juicebox?  It seems very likely that AP could have visited CM to do the Jailkeep action (if that's how that ability works, it's actually someone else's ability so maybe the someone else actually did the visiting).

AP claims a rolecop result of tracker, JB claims not exactly tracker, I am tracker.  Nobody else claims tracker.  So why do you think you were redirected to watch JB?

Max, Imp, Sofa: If AP denies the masons claim, we're in agreement that this is an attempt by CM to draw the elim, right?

Because of the timing I think CM is trying to draw the elim even if AP supports the masons claim.  I think CM was converted by JB.

If we don't elim JB D2, I highly recommend nobody use a free action they may get.  There may be a hidden price for not doing so, but there may be a conversion of the target if it's used.

At first, me and AP wanted to distance ourselves since I don't think it would be wise to make it obvious that we are teamed. I got frustrated at Spin's theory that I was teamed with Juicebox because I know it's not true. I know that Juicebox sent an order to AP to rb me and I know that AP rolecopped JB. Also, may you please rephrase the underlined part, I have trouble understanding what you were saying there.

I'm discussing the whole confused mess that doesn't make sense if you guys are town and alignment confirmed to each other.

AP decided to RB/Jail you N1.  You called it RB at the start of D2.  If you're informed it was a jail, if he discussed it with you at all, and why would he not if you're in an alignment confirmed chat - that's weird.

AP deciding to Jail the alignment confirmed doc at all N1.

CP deciding to, despite having an alignment confirmed rolecop in chat with her, instead doc the 'towny seeming who knows what role Imp'.

And then despite all this 'distancing' - throwing it all away because:

I got annoyed at Maximum Spin's theory that I was teammates with JB so I revealed it.

Does not compute for me.

[Imp]

CM deciding to, despite having an alignment confirmed rolecop in chat with her, instead doc the 'towny seeming who knows what role Imp'.

EBWOP, CP=CM

But if there is conversion, then a mason chat that actually did have 2 confirmed town in it may not stay 2 confirmed town all game, so even if AP says 'Yep, I'm town mason with CM' I'm still flipping out concerned about CM and JB and want JB dead.

Though I guess there's other stuff I can hear that would change my mind.  I still think CM's playing savior for JB, even with CM's vote there for now.  I know I could be wrong, but wow am I concerned about this.

[Maximum Spin]

I do get the impression that Crymea switched to juicebox, after everyone else switched away, ONLY to distance in the hopes that we wouldn't switch back.

[sofanthiel]

Sofa: If AP denies the masons claim, we're in agreement that this is an attempt by CM to draw the elim, right?

We should wait for Pigeon to post before publicizing our preconceptions, as that may influence the retort we receive, especially since we suspect the questionee to have ill intent.

[NJW2000]

NJW, is it true that whoever you targeted was visited by AP last night?

If so, why say this?

With me and Imp... either Imp is lying or we ended up with different targets through unrevealed redirection powers. Potentially me on Juicebox

Isn't that only possible if AP actually visited Juicebox, which seems impossible despite AP's intentional target of Juicebox?  It seems very likely that AP could have visited CM to do the Jailkeep action (if that's how that ability works, it's actually someone else's ability so maybe the someone else actually did the visiting).

Yeah, you’re right… I forgot about that redirect. “Me onto Imp” I should have written.

Sofa: If AP denies the masons claim, we're in agreement that this is an attempt by CM to draw the elim, right?

We should wait for Pigeon to post before publicizing our preconceptions, as that may influence the retort we receive, especially since we suspect the questionee to have ill intent.

I guess this is true also. I was not at my smartest when making that post, apparently.

[Imp]

It's now 48 hours since AP last logged into this forum.  Requesting AnimePigeon be pinged, please, TricMagic?.  I have the advantage of knowing other places he plays, I see multiple posts from him dated today and yesterday, so I think he's irl alive and well whatever is going on.

Everyone else has been on in the last 12 hours, everyone else except MS and AP has been on in the last 2.

Therefore, people not talking appear to be at least informed except maybe AP.

I believe we have to flip both CM and JB, and that between them juicebox really should go first.  I suspect JB of being a converter and while I have no idea about this weird and... weird mason claim, masons can be converted as far as I know.

Please let's murderize JB.  I don't trust CM to stay voted on JB.  I'm asking everyone currently on CM to move to JB.  I'm expecting to be around and I will move to CM if that's the only option, I do think CM also needs to die I just think JB is our most dangerous anti-town alive.

I think we need an elim of anti-town today, I don't want a no-elim.

Max seems as town-like as we're probably gonna see Max before he's moving for his wincon, please rand let that be green.

Sof is kinda fine maybe?  There's so little to read.  Thinking looks fine.

NJW weirds me out with apparent trouble following the chaos?  Or attempts to misguide interpretation of the chaos?  I don't know but NJW is small potatoes/a different problem if NJW is a problem, I really can't tell.  If I'm not around or get my mind changed I'll say it now, I'm scared about NJW also being a problem because the way NJW appears to be not following/tracking clues looks weird and wrong to me.  But maybe I just need more time with NJW when we're both town, for sure CYOS I was 100% torn between 'NJW is gonna save us all, just follow the plan you proposed, NJW' and 'Okay, lying NJW is clearly scum and must die fast'.  Instead he was semi-honest town and trying to play within his own knowledge sphere which wasn't big and tried pretty hard to help town too.  Maybe here as well.  But honorary 'town maybe, and maybe really town' to me.  If green's gonna win we probably have time to sort out NJW's townieness, I think we need JB dead D2 and not much else matters; if I'm wrong it's probably CM we need dead.  With luck we don't also need NJW dead and all's good and townie.

AP is inexplicably missing person and a key player.  Looks bad for AP, and bad for green, get here and say whatever please, AP.  I don't have a read here currently and I wanna cry.  But we could be 4 green against all the rest some kinda bad and that makes me real scared.

CM seems wrong for reasons already deeply discussed.

JB seems wronger and protected, 'core problem this is coded Noferatu kill this slot omg please'.  Sadly that's feel, not mech.  I don't even have my own terrifying role (thus proof terrifying roles exist; this game I have a very normal-looking role) to make me believe how dangerous Web + emeralds would be in this game to help drive my 'OMG this is the anti-town that wins this game if we don't stop it' but that's what I feel about JB.