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[Imp]

Imp: I expected a bus claim which would make it my word vs yours and sofas. As it stands… you’re somewhere in the middle of all this, on account of that visit.

Anyway… what was it you’d noticed?

Why did you expect a bus claim?

Who did you think was bussed?  I don't quite understand bussing, I find the swirl complex the one time I saw bus driving in our games.

I discussed a lot of my observations.

Here's one tangle:

So, I know I'm a tracker; I know simple roles can exist in this game.

AP got a tracker result, claiming to be a role cop, claiming intended target of JB, thought he had JB results.

JB confirms 'not tracker', sort of confirms.  JB is slippery-weird.  Not sure if pro or anti town, we should hear more from JB.

Max says redirected AP to Imp, which could explain tracker result, could explain Max's foreshadowing of wanting AP to say what did, then wanting AP to say what JB's role is, but wanting me not to spoil.  That works for me, it's plausible.

This makes me lean towards accepting AP is rolecop (maybe can do more?) Max is redirector (maybe can do more?) and JB is absolutely freaking something that maybe can take abilities from probably person unknown to him, set a target, and give it to someone else.  Pretty freaking interesting ability.

Also leans me towards accepting Sofa is jailkeeper (maybe can do more?), since that kinda fits with JB's iffy-sketchyness about 'didn't track tonight':

I don't want to reveal too much about my role right now, but what I will say is that AnimePigeon isn't quite right about it.

I definitely didn't track anyone tonight. All I did was give AnimePigeon the jail action.

PPE. Yes I did set the target for the action to CM, because they were my next highest scumpick after Egan at the end of D1.

I think if this stuff's true (and I know my part is) then JB is maybe some cool-weird Robin Hood that steals abilities from one person, sets a target, and gives them to one person.  I suspect the one person can be same or not, and I suspect RH.. err, JB, does not know who has what ability.  And the role's probably more complex than my guess, complex roles in a TricMagic game tend towards neat complexity and not-necessarily obvious connection of abilities.


Here's another tangle:

I know I'm a tracker that targeted CM, and got told CM didn't do anything.

That supports that the AP claim of using a given to him free action of targeted jailkeep on CM may have happened, that JB's setting of target and giving may have happened, and Sofa's claim of trying to Jailkeep NJW that didn't get to happen may also be true.

However, NJW who claims now to be a watcher who watched CM saw only AP target CM.  So somehow I was redirected to someone who didn't do anything (would that be to myself?  Would that be Sofa?  Could it be anyone else??? I don't think anyone else is possible), or NJW was redirected (NJW got a hit on only AP acting on the target.  Could it be that NJW was redirected to me, who AP rolecopped tracker from (also being redirected to me)?  And nobody else targetted me, making NJW's results true), or the watching didn't happen.

Now, the NJW and AP redirected to me, that suggests a more complex redirect, if that's what happened.   But means that I wasn't redirected to myself, or if so, it wasn't detectable to NJW.  I was told in my result for the night that I pick CM to track and there's no info appears to flow around, no action being done - all that's a paraphrase as required, of course.

A subtle way to tell me that I didn't do anything?  Not a clue.  It's worded so it looks like I tried to track CM and CM didn't do anything.  It's not impossible-looking to mean that I actually didn't do anything.

This one's weirder-looking but could involve

NJW Watched CM, forced to watch Imp instead, saw AP only targeter
AP Rolecopped JB, forced to rolecop Imp instead by Max
Max Forced AP to target Imp
Imp Tracked CM, forced to track Imp instead (forced not to act because can't track self, so NJW didn't see Imp self-target?)

all telling the truth we know, but would require someone to have not told us that they made everything targeting CM instead target me - but somehow not be detectable to NJW when he was forced to target me, because NJW only saw AP target me (and thought he saw CM), not any person forcing the target redirection.

It would also require the redirect of AP to not be able to control that given ability.  That would require AP to only be able to decide if it happens or not - a very distributed action.  Perhaps JB decides which action would target WHO IF someone else says yes, and also takes that action from whomever would use it.

We really need to hear more from Juicebox.

We have too many redirects going on, but it's not clear to me who is doing what or who is not being honest.

[Crystalizedmire]

I'm currently suspicious of AnimePigeon and juicebox for their seemingly unwarranted midnight cooperation that also, coincidentally, involved my ability that, keep in mind, didn't properly apply to NJW, and I highly doubt there's several jailkeepers in this game; however, another possibility is that NJW is lying about committing any action and gained all the insight he shared with us today through his mafia chat.  I get the feeling that, once Max and Imp show their hands, the game might solve itself.

I doubt that is the case becuase Animepigeon claimed they were sent an order to jail me.
NJW: Maybe it only redirects action performed willingly by the target? Because jailing me was an order.

[Maximum Spin]

Right now, I have this theory.

My theory is that Crystalizedmire and juicebox are the scumteam, and that juicebox has the drawback that actions he steals are forced to target his partner. Crystal would then have tried to kill and been very unlucky.

Personally, I was already pretty set on voting for juicebox as soon as he started being cagey about the rolecop result when I already knew the real explanation for that.

In the event that Crystal is town and juicebox is not soloscum, my most likely alternative is NJW2000.

[NJW2000]

Why did you expect a bus claim?

Who did you think was bussed?  I don't quite understand bussing, I find the swirl complex the one time I saw bus driving in our games.

Max claiming a particular bus (you and AP) would have simplified matters a lot, because it could have reduced the number of things that needed explanation... or I thought so at the time. I would have strongly suspected him, and there would still have been unsolved issues, but it would probably have come down to Max+Juicebox or something.

I tend to gravitate to simple solutions. Silly really, town or scum, Max almost always makes the game more complicated.

To be honest, I did suspect there was scum in you/Max with the insistence on claiming last, which might have coloured my judgement there too.

NJW: Maybe it only redirects action performed willingly by the target? Because jailing me was an order.

Maybe. It would be strange, because you still performed what's normally considered a standard, redirectable action, but maybe.

I'm slightly gravitating to the "Juicebox can steal actions" theory, because it explains sofa's claim without sofa lying or being redirected. It kind of fits with the flavour of the game in which everybody has a specific role in the heist, and there's a limited number of actionable abilities (e.g. I didn't get mine until egan died). An impostor program would steal another program's job, I guess.

My theory is that Crystalizedmire and juicebox are the scumteam, and that juicebox has the drawback that actions he steals are forced to target his partner. Crystal would then have tried to kill and been very unlucky.

I was pretty on board with most of this until I saw the drawback theory. Would scum!Juicebox really take that risk? The chances of a disagreeable action are high to say the least.

[Maximum Spin]

My theory is that Crystalizedmire and juicebox are the scumteam, and that juicebox has the drawback that actions he steals are forced to target his partner. Crystal would then have tried to kill and been very unlucky.

I was pretty on board with most of this until I saw the drawback theory. Would scum!Juicebox really take that risk? The chances of a disagreeable action are high to say the least.

I'm assuming he either doesn't really get a choice or gets some benefit we don't know.

I'm also assuming, perhaps wrongly, that there is some kind of kill at all, because it's the only reason to have a jailkeep instead of just a roleblock. That could be a red herring! In that case, maybe juicebox is some kind of a converter and we must now be suspicious of sofanthiel. (It would make some sense given the Megaman theming.) It's almost possible that there isn't even any particular "bad action" at all and the mafia-equivalent's only job is to lay low, I guess, too.

[Imp]

Confirmation from TricMagic, if I had somehow been forced to track myself, I'd have been told my target acted on me or I would have been told more directly if my action failed, neither happened.  I tracked someone who didn't do anything, and my action didn't fail.  I could have tracked a ninja or been redirected, that wouldn't inform me, otherwise I get my target's targets.  So NJW could have somehow been directed to target me and seen AP visit me, if that complex and convoluted situation happened, and I could have viewed CM (if it's true she didn't act) or Sofa (if it's true he didn't act).  If I was redirected to Sofa who didn't act, that explains NJW not seeing me visit CM.

But there has to be an explanation for NJW not seeing me (or anyone but AP) visit CM.  That's a bold lie for him to make; maybe not out of his ability but I don't think it likely.

I think he somehow targeted someone who AP targeted, which could be CM (and I was redirected) or could be me (and NJW was redirected).


Egan claimed miller and post restriction, and played kind weird D1.

Egan flipped:

Old Yanshi Network, XX 20XX. Suspisous Airman.

A mechanized voice spaeks on the holoscreen: Preparations are proceeding well. However there has been suspicions of suspisous activity from suspisous suspects. I jest. The Server goes staticky for a moment as a Heelnavi is locked down. However this one was shown to have made the least contributions, slacking off and observing others. Until such time that their operator has been cleared they shall be removed from the planning.

Shining_Egan [Watcher] : Connection Terminated

The Server will undergo it's schedulued maintainance now. Those of you authorized are to Keep a lookout on the surrounding net for any activity. We shall restart the server in 48 Cycles. Staticman out.

Do we think anything about this?

I think Egan was scum death grandfather or scum did something to Egan, or the miller only affects rolecop stuff and not death and we either don't get much flip or scum messed with that flip.

If Egan's scum, yay, we're down one.  We could face more than 2 anti-town in TricMagic's bastard game of 8 starting players omg I hope not?

If Egan's not scum, maaaaaybe something weird was done to the flip.


Current reads and thoughts:

I sure hope this game isn't conversions.  That's another reason why no kill could have happened.

Max:  Apparently directed AP to Imp.  Everything I see supports that.  Who can read Max, however this is believably towny Max to me.  Medium town lean, no confidence.

CM:  Apparently couldn't do anything last night.  Claims doc trying to doc me.  Is the obvious simple solution for elim if every single other person is honest or townie lies.  I know CM to be a great player now, well able to hide when anti-town.  Tends to push a bit when anti-town or when has a plan.  Incredibly weak town lean, no confidence.

NJW:  Has seemed scummy to me when town and has used townie lies a lot when town and pressed (Choose your own spheres, gods I sat hard on town NJW who was lying so much... and so well that demoralized scum fallacy didn't even try to kill N2, probably thinking the protection (that wouldn't have worked) would have worked).  Could be anything, but I do believe his claim about AP visiting NJW's target and being the only visitor.  Dislike how he responded after my claims.  Not being careful/thoughtful enough for me, some control focus.  Extremely weak town lean, no confidence.

AP:  Still want to know why he chose JB to rolecop.  Mech works, I believe his claims and that he was messed with.  Null, no confidence.  Have never seen him play as scum, he's different this game than my three when he was town (but those games I was never town, so I wasn't reading him the same as I am now).

JB:  What a mystery.  A strong asset or huge huge problem.  And my first game with.  Must hear more from, null with wild concern and high confidence of great concern.

Sofa:  Very hard to read.  Very late to claim.  Could have ties with JB, otherwise more likely solo.  Because of claim, must hear more from JB before I have more of an opinion about.

[Crystalizedmire]

I: rb'd by AP (true)
AP: Rolecopped Juice and was ordered to jail me (true)
Juice: Ordered AP to jail me (true or someone else must've ordered AP to do that)
NJW: watched me and stated that only one person visited me
Maximum Spin: redirected AP to Imp (maybe?)
sofanthiel: planned to jail NJW but action didn't succeed
Imp: Tracked me

In order for both NJW and Imp's story to be true, someone else must've redirected one of them. NJW could've been redirected to sofanthiel(if we're going with the theory Juice did something to sof). Imp could've been redirected to sofanthiel or herself. For NJW and Imp to be truthful, a bastard mechanic is at play here. Sofanthiel being teh redirector is unlikely because that would require sofanthiel redirecting someone to himself. Thus, I believe that NJW is scum.

My theory is that Crystalizedmire and juicebox are the scumteam, and that juicebox has the drawback that actions he steals are forced to target his partner. Crystal would then have tried to kill and been very unlucky.

I'm in a mason chat with AnimePigeon so this theory is false.

[Imp]

I'm in a mason chat with AnimePigeon so this theory is false.

When did this mason chat start?

When and how did you learn you were jailkept 'by' AnimePigeon?

What information do you have confirmed about this chat and its members?

[NJW2000]

CrystallizedMire: when you say masons , do you mean "confirmed town to one another"?

And if so... yeah, Imp's questions.


Imp: I think death-godfather egan may be wishful thinking.

[Crystalizedmire]

I'm in a mason chat with AnimePigeon so this theory is false.

When did this mason chat start?

Start of the game.

When and how did you learn you were jailkept 'by' AnimePigeon?

AnimePigeon told me in chat that they were ordered to jail me during n1.

What information do you have confirmed about this chat and its members?

We have the same alignment and wincon.

CrystallizedMire: when you say masons , do you mean "confirmed town to one another"?

yes.

[Imp]

AP, we need to hear what you have to say about CM's claims, please.

I notice some odd stuff.

CM is very specific that you were **ordered** to jail her N1, that you told her this.

You have been very specific to the thread that you were given a free action and a choice to use it, I see the words option and other wording that strongly means "AP has a choice to use this or not"

the jail which I was given only the option to jail 1 named person)

Give me a big red button, god damn I'm certain to press it.

I would also like to claim I was given an Additional/Extra Action, which was free, but could only be used to Jail CrystalisedMire.

Because I didn't have a very high/good read of them Day 1, I decided it was best value efficiency wise to accept the additional/extra action and jail CrystalisedMire.

Is CrystalizedMire doing anything possible to keep us from elim of Juicebox?

This suddenly seems very relevant and meaningful to me, it sings to my soul.  Or at least my sus, which is currently throwing plumes of smoke into the air in a beautiful way.

[NJW2000]

AP: if the two of you are masons, why did you misdirect us here?

Because I didn't have a very high/good read of them Day 1, I decided it was best value efficiency wise to accept the additional/extra action and jail CrystalisedMire.

I... I'm guessing AP will say the same thing as CM. The world where someone makes a mason claim this confidently and the other person denies it is too strange for me to comprehend.


Imp: do you mean like a guardian angel kind of role?


Hmm... maybe. That's way too many town-sided power roles claimed now, unless mafia have something insane and unguessable, or the masons claim is false. But why? Panicked scum? Mafia-ally play? Post restrictions forcing people to claim nonsense like Egan did? I think I need to slow down my posting and draw a diagram.

[Crystalizedmire]

CM is very specific that you were **ordered** to jail her N1, that you told her this.

You have been very specific to the thread that you were given a free action and a choice to use it, I see the words option and other wording that strongly means "AP has a choice to use this or not"

Doesn't order just mean that "someone uses an action to make someone else do something given the option to refuse but the original person who sent the action will be informed?"

[Imp]

It is also possible that CM is a ninja.  And I cannot get a commentful answer on if a ninja could get out of Jail in this bastard game.

But if a ninja could be confirmed jailed by a long, convoluted process, which JB seems to have started.

CM could be a source of actions despite being jailed and tracked and this might support a connection to JB and a reason to defend JB.  But CM could explain maybe why someone extra seems to have been redirected.

If that's so, we probably have conversions of some kind, or some other very bastard mechanic going on.  Maybe anti-town kills are not instant, I have no idea.

But a huge interest in hearing what everyone says about their thoughts and what they know.

Imp: do you mean like a guardian angel kind of role?

More like she needs him alive to have any chance to win.  Maybe she was converted last night.

TM had a recent game where a town doctor/frame-fixer was unaware they were also used to do the mafia NK, it was an extra action the town doc would do in addition to their own actions.

TM has used 'one person do another's work' in confusing ways in games with a lot of tracking and cop options.

I think CM's behavior may make sense for a 'do anything to not let JB die' sort of way.  But I think of guardian angel as townish and I don't feel any confidence this is townish.  There's so many weird things going on.

CM is very specific that you were **ordered** to jail her N1, that you told her this.

You have been very specific to the thread that you were given a free action and a choice to use it, I see the words option and other wording that strongly means "AP has a choice to use this or not"

Doesn't order just mean that "someone uses an action to make someone else do something given the option to refuse but the original person who sent the action will be informed?"

CM.

No, order generally doesn't involve options, 'offer' does.

CM.

What do you say about AP having said this?

Because I didn't have a very high/good read of them Day 1, I decided it was best value efficiency wise to accept the additional/extra action and jail CrystalisedMire.

You say:

What information do you have confirmed about this chat and its members?

We have the same alignment and wincon.

Why does your statement not match AP's statement to us?

[Imp]

CM, what would you have done if you were not jailkept, and who would you have done it to?

I'm doctor and I would've protected you if not roleblocked

Why me?

You seemed towny at the time.

CM, given your mason chat and alignment knowledge, discuss further why you would have doctored me, and how towny at the time you thought I was compared to how towny you think AP was, and why you'd wanna doc 'seems towny no idea the role' Imp instead of 'confirmed wincon same AP' who is in a chat with you and presumably would tell you he's a rolecop, even if he didn't you claim you know is town.