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[TricMagic]

Asking for opinions is fine and all, but you need confidence as town or scum.

[Maximum Spin]

Even while saying you don't like the plan, think it sets up for a scum win, but if we do it, make sure Max is one of D or E.  Not super concerned about who else is the other.  That looks scummy to me.

Okay, that's such a dishonest interpretation of what I said that I'm solidly willing to assume you can read and say Imp. I get it, you accidentally shot yourself in the foot and now you're trying to weasel out of the plan.

If someone hammers before we work out a plan for in case this is wrong, I'll just executively say right now: Tric and I will shoot sofanthiel and Secretdorf and sofanthiel can go ahead and shoot me, unless Tric chimes in first demanding to be even more sacrificial. Nobody can complain about my plan if I volunteer for it, surely.

Uggggh, I'll engage.

Where do you think you see that?

I never intended it.

This is the best plan I can think of for town control.  I'm not sure it is the best for a town win.  I can't think of a better, and am openly

Anything I'm not understanding?  Does the math work and plan seem sound?  Even if we don't agree to do it, I'd like your evaluation and reactions.

and repeatedly

Otherwise, it's not so good a plan at all.  It basically uses mechanics, with some decisionmaking, to set up a strong clear win for whichever side does win, based on our pick of two players as being town.  Every other plan has more wiggle room, which I think helps scum more than town, but I'm not sure of that either.  I haven't played a game with mechanics even close to this before, and I still want evaluations - or us to say 'drop the plan and do something else entire'.  I can live with that too, but if so, what?  Just over 4 hours left to end of day.

Asking for opinions, evaluation, and other ideas.  Where'd I say I hate this plan?

Additionally concerned here because you've shown yourself able to accurately read me, when we were both town, you did so pretty darn well D1 in Birbs.  You only sometimes make stuff up, and I wish I could read you better.  You making this up too?  If so, why?

What I'm pointing out here is that, when people are giving you their (positive) evaluation and reactions, you find it scummy and suddenly pull back and start emphasizing your uncertainty and ask for alternative suggestions, almost like you wanted to make sure it got torpedoed. I suggest myself and TricMagic as survivors, you don't like TricMagic. I suggest myself and Secretdorf as survivors instead, now you don't like me. Would you take Secretdorf and sofanthiel? I'm willing to gamble on that if it comes down to it. But it LOOKS like you don't want to do the plan unless you're in the top two.

[Maximum Spin]

Unvote so I can hash out the plan further without fear of hammers.

Look, the only reason any player should want to refuse to follow the plan I just cited is if 1) You're scum, or 2) you believe one of Secretdorf or Tric are scum.
There's definitely only one scum, so if you believe one of Secretdorf or Tric are scum, you should be fine with substituting me for whichever one you think is scum.

So let's have everyone post your two preferred survivors not including yourself. The only person who would want to torpedo this operation is the mafia player.

[Imp]

Imp: Would you be willing to commit to a kill-3 plan with me and Secretdorf as the survivors? I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt because you were attacking TricMagic before I suggested him as one, but it really looks to me like you suddenly hate the plan that might guarantee a town win.

What is this possible 3-kill plan?

If we lynch someone, and that someone is a mislynch, we go into N1 with 3 town, 1 scum.  let's say A is scum.

Plan is, I guess, have A and C shoot B, B and D shoot A.

If A or B is scum, town will win.

If C or D is scum, town will lose.

This is a true 60% chance of town win, ignoring discussion and picking, for townies involved who are not A or B (or E who was lynched) it has an apparent 60% chance of a win.  For A, B, and E who are townies, it has an apparent 50% chance of a win.

But their only townread is Secretdorf. Which implies they must survive in their plan. No sacrifices here~ Just plain survival. Very townie, yes?

It's usually not town's job to say 'I am town'.  How I think this should work:

We as a group decide who C and D are.  Not any one of us.

That does require everyone involved to communicate and agree.

4 of us are town.  Together we can reason, discuss, and agree what as a group to do - if we decide to and decide that is the best plan.

[Imp]

So let's have everyone post your two preferred survivors not including yourself. The only person who would want to torpedo this operation is the mafia player.

I really want, if possible, to hear more from especially sof and Sec.

But those two are my current top town leans.

Earlier today it would have been Sec and Max, but Max is both hard to read and not, that I can see, pushing for a true town win so much as get Max on that list of people not dying.

[Maximum Spin]

What is this possible 3-kill plan?

If we lynch someone, and that someone is a mislynch, we go into N1 with 3 town, 1 scum.  let's say A is scum.

Plan is, I guess, have A and C shoot B, B and D shoot A.

If A or B is scum, town will win.

If C or D is scum, town will lose.

That's what I said, yes. I laid it out really clearly, earlier. If you didn't read that, that isn't my fault. I read everything you posted.

It's usually not town's job to say 'I am town'.

Of course it's town's job to say "I am town", especially in a game like this where we're actually trying to pick town (to survive), not scum. It's similar to Fallacy's Jade Thingy.

[Secretdorf]

I am willing to take Imp and Tricmagic as confirmed town. Max also feels town to me.
So I don't really need a plan at this point.

Sofanthiel

Well, this is the third time I've been in a game where a player got seriously pissed. And I've been in what, ten twelve games. All I can say is that even if Tric meant what he said, that's just his opinion, based on his playstyle, and does not mean everybody else or anybody else feels the same way, besides I'm pretty sure he didn't mean it like that.

But if we do need the plan I'm more willing to do Secretdorf+Tricmagic than Secretdorf+MaximumSpin because of this:

Imp: Would you be willing to commit to a kill-3 plan with me and Secretdorf as the survivors? I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt because you were attacking TricMagic before I suggested him as one, but it really looks to me like you suddenly hate the plan that might guarantee a town win.

I'd feel completely comfortable doing this if D and E in this scenario are me and TricMagic. It's not so much that I'm convinced that TricMagic is town, as that he's done a good enough job that I'd be okay with him winning as scum here and feel like it was earned. It's important to remember that Tric does best solo, though, so with this being a soloscum game it's a real possibility that that'll actually be how it goes.

Even while saying you don't like the plan, think it sets up for a scum win, but if we do it, make sure Max is one of D or E.  Not super concerned about who else is the other.  That looks scummy to me.

And also, Max, you had said that you didn't mind losing if Tric was mafia.

PLUS

I'd assume I would be the lynch here Max? I'm fine with that.

I think this clears Tric.

[sofanthiel]

I'm concerning eager to find scum.  We have 'all day' but not many days or hours in any day, and I'd like to get what we can before this one ends.

I'm trying to remember that I was part of mislynching you from just a few posts into the game last game, and not laser in on Tric, who doesn't seem to be scumhunting and hit that trigger in me that I'm trying to disarm and remember to watch everyone and watch for subtle scumreads.  I want us all working to find scum.

Yes, but regardless of the explanation, you still expressed a desire to lynch Tric and jump in on my RVS vote, which you allegedly refrained from solely on account of hammer being in play.

just to be clear, yes, I got my PM like forty minutes before game start. It said town. I would think that, if that had really happened like I said, EuchreJack would have been a bit more panicked about it. I was just joking around because it's important for everyone to learn that that's something I do.

While EuchreJack would've corrected the mistake a long time ago and likely informed us of such an oversight, he was undeniably away for a bit after the game started -- the time I proposed my original explanation.  It's plausible that pretending some day 1 statement is a joke was plan B that came into effect after someone saw through your trickery.  A very similar thing happened in... was it dogfia?  I just vividly remember you employing the exact same strategy not many games ago.

[sofanthiel]

Also, apologies if I'm struggling to keep up with anything important!  Please be sure to let me know what I missed while I was away; there's been a whole lot of posts in the past 24 hours, haha.

[Maximum Spin]

I just asked for one simple thing. Come on.

[sofanthiel]

I suggest myself and TricMagic as survivors, you don't like TricMagic. I suggest myself and Secretdorf as survivors instead, now you don't like me. Would you take Secretdorf and sofanthiel?

The person I suspect most is currently Imp, but Tric is not too much higher on my list.  I suggest Max and Secretdorf as survivors.

[Secretdorf]

I suggest myself and TricMagic as survivors, you don't like TricMagic. I suggest myself and Secretdorf as survivors instead, now you don't like me. Would you take Secretdorf and sofanthiel?

The person I suspect most is currently Imp, but Tric is not too much higher on my list.  I suggest Max and Secretdorf as survivors.

You wouldn't accidentally be town, would you?

[Imp]

sofanthiel

Unvote so I can hash out the plan further without fear of hammers.

Look, the only reason any player should want to refuse to follow the plan I just cited is if 1) You're scum, or 2) you believe one of Secretdorf or Tric are scum.
There's definitely only one scum, so if you believe one of Secretdorf or Tric are scum, you should be fine with substituting me for whichever one you think is scum.

So let's have everyone post your two preferred survivors not including yourself. The only person who would want to torpedo this operation is the mafia player.

The above is probably the most important if you don't have time.

Do you have a set of picks for the two top towniest not yourself?

We desperately need your ideas and input, whatever you can give.

Here's the stated top picks for each player for the two non-self survivors, if I understand what everyone said:

Picks for survivors:

Imp: Sec (only happy with Sec, well done if you're scum, Sec) and sof (sof you better get in and talk more).
Sec: Tric and Imp (and Max as town, but not as a survivor)
Max: Sec and Tric (again offering Max as a replacement for either)
Tric:
Sof: Max and Secretdorf

I desperately need more from you, Sof.  I'm uncomfortable with both Tric and Max, but if I drop you off my survivor list, my next current pick is Tric between Max and Tric.  Can you explain why you lean Max more than Tric for survivor, your reasons and reads?

The person I suspect most is currently Imp, but Tric is not too much higher on my list.  I suggest Max and Secretdorf as survivors.

Can you explain why you lean Max town over Tric?

[sofanthiel]

Can you explain why you lean Max more than Tric for survivor, your reasons and reads?

Tric voted me back when he still believed that lynching anyone was a losing move.  Another odd claim is the following:

Also, 1 townie and 1 mafia dead is GREAT Imp. Why are you implyng otherwise? OP says there is 1 mafia, so why do you imply another?

I genuinely don't see where this was ever implied; that entire section looks like a way to subconsciously influence others' views of you, Imp.

Spin, on the other hand, seems mostly clear to me.  All of my criticism of him up to this point was speculative at best.

[TricMagic]

So let's have everyone post your two preferred survivors not including yourself. The only person who would want to torpedo this operation is the mafia player.

As stated, mine would be you and Secretdorf.