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[Imp]

So my primary concern right now is that, if my understanding of the relevant time zones is correct, we may not hear anything more from sofanthiel before day ends. Given that he has said approximately jack all last night, this is counter-productive. Does anyone else think we might want to get Jack to reconsider the day length?

I see Secretdorf has just posted similar thoughts.

I support extend if we are allowed extensions.

[Maximum Spin]

The closest thing to an "Imp plan" available was:
No lynch today; the second and third least-trusted people should shoot the least-trusted, while the least-trusted and the two most trusted should shoot the second-least-trusted.

It's not the best plan for the reasons I explained. Instead, I propose we lynch the least-trustable player today, then players (2 and 4) shoot 3 and (3 and 5) shoot 2. If all the town players follow along and scum is NOT hiding in the top two, then we win.

If you need it more concrete than that, then, for example, one possible plan would be lynching sofanthiel, then you and Secretdorf shoot Imp while Imp and I shoot Secretdorf. It just depends on what order we settle on.

Well, you know I'm not really into voluntary-self-sacrifice plays, but I'd go along with it if we can all agree on an ordering.

So, I already know Max'll say just about anything.  I don't know how sincere this is.

What I hear from Tric is my playstyle's hurting the game/players.

This is my playstyle.  It sucks that you don't like it.  I am still learning, but I'm unlikely to change in a great way.  I don't like everyone else's playstyle always either.

I can leave the forum, I can stop playing.  But the place to tell me 'this is bad for others' is out of game, not in one.

If you're scum, this method sucks.

If you're town and this isn't a ploy, we should discuss this out of and after game.

If you're town and this is a ploy, congrats, you've successfully made me question if I even should be playing mafia, and if I should just leave.  Clearly after the big next game instead of mess that up by leaving now - or not.  I'll leave that in the hands of others.  Grats though, intended or not, I'm not having any fun anymore.  This is a personal attack and not okay with me.  But you've 'successfully reversed' it on me, whether you meant to or not.  "But in the process you're sucking all the energy out of people" - yeah, you are to me with that, thanks.

However, Max also implies support, maybe.

So we should definitely discuss this out of game, after game, when I don't have to also wonder if you're just playing, or serious.  This is something should only be said seriously, and not in game.  Or not said at all, and I should just leave.

Honestly, I just see hostility from Tric all game, again and again.  An attempt to control the game and threaten anyone else who did anything that isn't cosy for Tric.

Wow, I really, really hate this. That was a very mild criticism and the correct response is definitely not to fold up and cry. That's something that, at the very least, definitely shouldn't be done in game where it just looks like clumsy emotional manipulation. I'm sorry if you need to only hear nice things to have fun, but, considering how you treated me in the dog thing, wow.

[TricMagic]

Outside looking in, your posts are well reasoned Imp. I can recognize that. In game, some people may skip over them, seeing wall after wall of text. It's not a personal attack, just a note that it can smother discussion. I suspect the upcoming game is going to be a good.. I'd say test, but more that there are going to be a lot of people and playstyles.

I did ask you to read the dragon game. Mostly as a show of what I'm like in that position. Cause our styles aren't really compatible, I think. (For all that looking scummy is a style. Somehow unintelligible nonsense has become my towntell when I'm just hunting and watching.)

Ninja.

[sofanthiel]

If we don't skip, those two deaths will be game over, giving us a mere 40% chance to catch the rebel.  Not eliminating makes it significantly more likely for us to hear the morning reveille.

In case we don't skip, the only other outcome is for town to make an executive decision to hold fire, as a rifle and noose become functionally identical, except the latter gives us a chance to make an informed choice in the morning.  Blindly shooting in the dark isn't the best idea.

[Maximum Spin]

I didn't even want to read the rest of that

giant barrel of whine

but I forced myself. I'll just ignore the parts about Tric for now as they're not relevant to me and skip ahead to the part that involves me.

Imp's plan actually neglects the possibility that, in the "C is scum" case, C could shoot B *and also shoot someone else*.

What is this, then?

A and C are expected to shoot B.  As scum, C can double tap someone else, but then B doesn't die.  A does die, and flips town.  We hang C because they didn't follow the plan.

Obviously, not a consideration of the case where C shoots B and also someone else, since you said "B doesn't die" and "C can double-tap someone else". Yes, you go on to say that D or E would have no reason to do that so it still makes C look bad, like I said, but it's just unnecessary in a world where we can lynch our top scumpick and then kill the next two, with the exact same result in terms of only and always failing if D and E are not both town, guaranteed game end in one night, no possible complications of scum trying to confuse people. PLUS, we can even come up with two plans depending on how A's flip changes our perspective, if we really want to, although I don't think this is necessary.

I really feel, though, like you're trying too hard to come up with a plan that guarantees scum win if you can convince people to put you into that top two players, which is why I will absolutely not agree to have you in it. It's just the cost of being the person who suggested it in the first place - you can't be trusted to execute it yourself. Given the displayed fragility, though, I find myself feeling like I have to reassure that this isn't any kind of personal attack, which, frankly, is an uncomfortable position I don't want to be in.

[Imp]

Statistics so far based on what I can track:

Little more than 4/5 of D1 has passed.  I see this as our vote count and voting statistics:

- Imp (1)- Tric
- TricMagic (1)- sof
- Maximum Spin (0)-
- sofanthiel (0)-
- Secretdorf (1)- Max
- No Lynch (0)-


Warning: 3 is hammer

Not voting: Imp, Sec

Around 4 hours remaining

Vote switches:
Tric switched 'Skip' to sof to imp

Have never voted:  Imp, Sec

Post count:

Imp 13 (with this one)
Tric 11
Max 10
sof 2
Sec 5

Scummiest to towniest:

Tric: Hostile scum.
sof: Where did you go?  Having fun lurking as we tear each other apart?  I note was last active a few minutes ago.
Max: I can't read Max.  Plays with lies as town or scum.
Sec: Reasonable thinking.  Evaluating and trying to win.

[Imp]

EBWOP, I missed sof's most recent post right before, so posts up to 3 for sof.

[TricMagic]

Being honest, would bump Max up to a soft town read. Reasonable. Picking apart holes instead of attempting to take advantage of it. Makes things fairly easy to decide on. Is the pressure getting to you?

[Maximum Spin]

Imp: Would you be willing to commit to a kill-3 plan with me and Secretdorf as the survivors? I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt because you were attacking TricMagic before I suggested him as one, but it really looks to me like you suddenly hate the plan that might guarantee a town win.

[TricMagic]

I'd assume I would be the lynch here Max? I'm fine with that.

[Imp]

I really feel, though, like you're trying too hard to come up with a plan that guarantees scum win if you can convince people to put you into that top two players, which is why I will absolutely not agree to have you in it. It's just the cost of being the person who suggested it in the first place - you can't be trusted to execute it yourself. Given the displayed fragility, though, I find myself feeling like I have to reassure that this isn't any kind of personal attack, which, frankly, is an uncomfortable position I don't want to be in.

I never plan on being there for D2.  I give everything I have D1.  If I'm there D2, then I give everything I have then.

You are the one saying you should be one of the D and E players.  You've said, asked about, or implied that twice:

Imp: Would you be willing to commit to a kill-3 plan with me and Secretdorf as the survivors? I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt because you were attacking TricMagic before I suggested him as one, but it really looks to me like you suddenly hate the plan that might guarantee a town win.

I'd feel completely comfortable doing this if D and E in this scenario are me and TricMagic. It's not so much that I'm convinced that TricMagic is town, as that he's done a good enough job that I'd be okay with him winning as scum here and feel like it was earned. It's important to remember that Tric does best solo, though, so with this being a soloscum game it's a real possibility that that'll actually be how it goes.

Even while saying you don't like the plan, think it sets up for a scum win, but if we do it, make sure Max is one of D or E.  Not super concerned about who else is the other.  That looks scummy to me.

[Imp]

In case we don't skip, the only other outcome is for town to make an executive decision to hold fire, as a rifle and noose become functionally identical, except the latter gives us a chance to make an informed choice in the morning.  Blindly shooting in the dark isn't the best idea.

Sof, your town needs you, if town you be.  What do you recommend we do, and why?

[Maximum Spin]

I'd assume I would be the lynch here Max? I'm fine with that.

Not necessarily, you can just get shot instead, but the basic kill-3 plan is that three players get killed and the best two survive, so it pretty much doesn't matter what order the three go in. I don't really think lynching you would change anything if you turn out to be town (obviously, if you were scum, the game would end and it doesn't matter), so it's not the most valuable pick, but I'm not sure lynching anybody WOULD change anything, so whatever.

[TricMagic]

If you lynch me first, I can't protect mafia. (By screwing up.)

Imp says you're scum for going with the plan where you sruvive. But their only townread is Secretdorf. Which implies they must survive in their plan. No sacrifices here~ Just plain survival. Very townie, yes?

[Imp]

but it really looks to me like you suddenly hate the plan that might guarantee a town win.

Where do you think you see that?

I never intended it.

This is the best plan I can think of for town control.  I'm not sure it is the best for a town win.  I can't think of a better, and am openly

Anything I'm not understanding?  Does the math work and plan seem sound?  Even if we don't agree to do it, I'd like your evaluation and reactions.

and repeatedly

Otherwise, it's not so good a plan at all.  It basically uses mechanics, with some decisionmaking, to set up a strong clear win for whichever side does win, based on our pick of two players as being town.  Every other plan has more wiggle room, which I think helps scum more than town, but I'm not sure of that either.  I haven't played a game with mechanics even close to this before, and I still want evaluations - or us to say 'drop the plan and do something else entire'.  I can live with that too, but if so, what?  Just over 4 hours left to end of day.

Asking for opinions, evaluation, and other ideas.  Where'd I say I hate this plan?

Additionally concerned here because you've shown yourself able to accurately read me, when we were both town, you did so pretty darn well D1 in Birbs.  You only sometimes make stuff up, and I wish I could read you better.  You making this up too?  If so, why?