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[Devastator]

https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/justice-department-transfers-approximately-500000-forfeited-russian-funds-estonia-benefit

[Maximum Spin]

Iran do what America don't. Fuck Trump's republicans.

I'm not sure what you want Congress to do here. According to polls, the majority of American citizens are against sending more aid to Ukraine and have been for months. Those who still support it can and should donate personally, but it wouldn't be right for Congress to make that decision as it stands.

[citation needed]

Every reputable poll I can find has "US aid (before the gridlock) is where it should be" and "the US should be sending more aid" outperform "the US is doing too much" be a supermajority. The "most Americans want to cut aid" narrative is being spread by eliminating one of the first two options (each about 30%), then declaring that the last one (about 40%) is the clear winner.

I said "against sending more aid to Ukraine", meaning, think we have sent enough aid to Ukraine, total, cumulatively, not worded as "we are sending the right amount of money to Ukraine and should continue sending it at the same rate", but explicitly worded as "the US has done enough for Ukraine", which polls at about 55% nationally.

[Strongpoint]

Again, citation is needed.

https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/12/08/about-half-of-republicans-now-say-the-us-is-providing-too-much-aid-to-ukraine/

I think this one is the basis of your claim but it doesn't have the question worded as you claim.

[The_Explorer]

I said this in a post in ameripol but...

What russia does in ukraine, effects europe, which ultimately effects the US

What happens in one part of the world (even china's terrible collapsing economy has a huge effect) effects all other parts of the world. Since its the modern age and everything is pretty much connected.

People SHOULD care more about what is happening in ukraine, but they don't see how it all connects.

[Maximum Spin]

Again, citation is needed.

https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/12/08/about-half-of-republicans-now-say-the-us-is-providing-too-much-aid-to-ukraine/

I think this one is the basis of your claim but it doesn't have the question worded as you claim.

If you meant me, no, I hadn't even seen that one, but it also supports my point.

There are lots of polls, but I specifically pulled the 55% number from a CNN poll that found that 55% of Americans opposed Congress allocating any more money to Ukraine around the middle of last year. Of course every poll gives different numbers, but the unfortunate fact is that the general tenor, including the one you mentioned, clearly shows that slight majorities of Americans are tired of the war and don't want to do any more, while, of course, the current opposition party mostly opposes what the current administration has done at all and say it should have done less.

ETA: And by the way, yes, when Republicans in particular oppose funding to Ukraine at much higher levels, that does mean that Republicans in Congress, representing majority Republican constituents, should especially act to prevent it, even if they were a minority overall - because their job is to represent their own voters, not you.

[Strongpoint]

Heh. It would work this way if Republicans were not able to influence the opinions of their voters. When you do everything you can to persuade your voters to think that X is correct and then go "Well, what can I do? My voters want X. My own political goals and opinions don't matter, I am merely a servant of the people" it sounds a little... dishonest.

[bloop_bleep]

"Of course every poll has different numbers, but also my poll is the only one that matters."

Congress should pass aid to Ukraine, and Americans should want to have Congress pass aid to Ukraine. When has campaigning for the government to do something ever become illegitimate because the majority currently may or may not disagree? If the majority of Americans wanted to reinstate segregation would you be in here pontificating about how it should go ahead and happen?

Of course, you just might, considering you seemingly need to be contrarian to avoid your ballsack shriveling up and dying.

[Maximum Spin]

"Of course every poll has different numbers, but also my poll is the only one that matters."

Uh, that's not what I said, I said "every poll has different numbers but they're all basically in the same direction, and I cited more than one."

Congress should pass aid to Ukraine, and Americans should want to have Congress pass aid to Ukraine. When has campaigning for the government to do something ever become illegitimate because the majority currently may or may not disagree? If the majority of Americans wanted to reinstate segregation would you be in here pontificating about how it should go ahead and happen?

No, and I didn't say it was "illegitimate" to want the government to do something, either. In that specific case, Congress couldn't do that anyway because it would be unconstitutional, but if there was enough of a supermajority in favor of segregation to amend the Constitution, and the Constitutional process to do so was initiated, I would be saying that you shouldn't be surprised, and for those of us who dislike segregation to sit around and complain about how the politicians are bad and wrong for doing what their constituents elected them for instead of doing something about it (whether leaving, organizing an opposition, or campaigning for secession in anti-segregation states or areas) would be stupid.

[bloop_bleep]

Strongpoint's poll shows 47:31 "not enough/about right" to "too much" support to Ukraine, so no, not all polls point in the same direction.

[Maximum Spin]

Strongpoint's poll shows 47:31 "not enough/about right" to "too much" support to Ukraine, so no, not all polls point in the same direction.

I disagree with that framing because, as I said, saying that the level is "about right" is NOT saying that there should be more. I specifically said that polls show people feel there should not be more.

[Starver]

UK sanctioned... the staff of the prison in which Navalny was murdered. *hysterical laughter*.

This is the problem, IMO. Unwillingness or inability to hit Russia with harmful hostile actions. Throwing money and military hardware at Ukraine won't be sufficient. Even with massive Western help, we will run out of manpower and\or political stability long before Russia will.

To be honest, it's hard to work out what proportional direct hostile action the UK could get away with, against Russia. This may only be nominally performative[1], and I agree that it's laughable, but it's arguably better than doing absolute zip.

(And, of course, there's already plenty of other things being done/considered in indirect manner, that we know of, as you point out. Nothing directly linked to Navalny's death, but you naturally wouldn't even expect the wheels-within-wheels set in motion by that to become visible this soon. Perhaps not for a long time, if ever.)


And, TBH, if I heard that these named individuals had somehow died of accidents, I'd not even be sure if it was due to foreign actions (from .ue, .uk, .us or wherever) or as internalised retribution handed down by Putin for allowing a medical incident to remove this valuable trapped piece from play, when he might easily have been planned to have been reserved for some hypothetical future exchange. Putin's a chessmaster[2], and the timing of this event doesn't really seem to help him. If it does, then it's part of an even deeper plan[3] that means all bets are off as to whether anything 'we' do can help or hinder the whole situation.


Considering it objectively (apart from the tragic personal nature of this whole thing, to those involved), I find I really can't get excited about an effectively muted opposer of Putin now being terminally mute. The potential knock-on effects into other theatres of direct/indirect conflict are more important. And everyone's hidden background decisions (because of, or regardless of, this event) will count much more than the currently public decisions.


[1] Hard to see what discomforts can be extended to people in Siberia. I mean, even if they're the ones in charge of a prison in deepest Siberia, they probably aren't exactly world-trotting oligarchists casually transfering indirectly-converted rubles into British banks, buying from Harrods, etc... Because why would they be doing that and (with all due apologies to those who live there) happily be posted in deepest Siberia..?

[2] Or tries to be, though clearly fallible.

[3] Provoking the West to make such responses as we see/hope for?

[MaxTheFox]

(And hey, Siberia isn't bad at all!)

[Frumple]

(And hey, Siberia isn't bad at all!)

One of the places in the world that's memetically terrible to the point it's known across the globe and multigenerationally as somewhere-you-don't-want-to-live isn't bad at all, huh. Old dumping ground of the USSR. A place with a population density roughly equivalent to Montana (which sucks significantly due to there not being anyone there).

*holds up sign saying "blink twice if you need help"*

No one not being coerced would say that with any seriousness, heh. It's like saying afghanistan's a nice place for a summer vacation

[Maximum Spin]

I have friends who like living in Montana, so I'd believe someone could like living in Siberia.
In fact, I'd probably like living there if it wasn't, you know, Russia.

I bet the cost of living's real cheap.

[MaxTheFox]

(And hey, Siberia isn't bad at all!)

One of the places in the world that's memetically terrible to the point it's known across the globe and multigenerationally as somewhere-you-don't-want-to-live isn't bad at all, huh. Old dumping ground of the USSR. A place with a population density roughly equivalent to Montana (which sucks significantly due to there not being anyone there).

*holds up sign saying "blink twice if you need help"*

No one not being coerced would say that with any seriousness, heh. It's like saying afghanistan's a nice place for a summer vacation

Westerners really exaggerate how shitty it is, really.

I live in a decently-sized city. For privacy reasons not gonna say it but it's larger than most US cities. The population density doesn't matter when there are still urban centers with services and industry.

The taiga, which is what people tend to think of when they think of Siberia, yeah I wouldn't wish that on anyone.

And yes the cost of life is fairly cheap, cheaper than European Russia at least. Honestly I never felt a push to move to the European part of the country: when I move I'm leaving the country altogether. It's, from what I can tell, just not actually that big of a quality-of-life upgrade.

But sure, all memes are true. Bet you think there are bears walking around on the street too.