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[Lenglon]

Any "everyone wins" plan requires at least the crowned mafia to out themselves for us to start passing the crown around. If neither of them are willing to take that step, then it doesn't matter if town is willing to cooperate on it.

Max: What's your hat?

FoU: What's your hat?

[FallacyofUrist]

EGAN: What actually happens if votes are tied?

We can just vote no-elimination, we don't have to force a tie or whatever.

Right, but no-lynch could potentially get tied too.

Right, but we can hammer no execution.

Any "everyone wins" plan requires at least the crowned mafia to out themselves for us to start passing the crown around. If neither of them are willing to take that step, then it doesn't matter if town is willing to cooperate on it.

Well I'd like to request that they do.

... if they aren't willing to cooperate, then we'll just have to find them and take the crown by force. But at that point townies will die before they can be converted, so it wouldn't be an everyone wins plan, and that would be sad.

Or you know, we could just kill the mafia, because if we can't have everyone wins, then we may as well make the mafia pay for not cooperating.

FoU: What's your hat?

I do not have the Crown. I am town. In the event that the Crownbearer comes forwards for the everyone wins plan, I'll claim my exact hat Day 1. Otherwise, I'll claim whatever hats I have when it is most appropriate to do so, and I can't predict when that will be at this time.

[Maximum Spin]

Right, but we can hammer no execution.

With five people, right. Five people haven't committed to the plan yet. If we assume everyone who has is town, then there are five with the mafia, but if one is mafia, there are only four, and if both mafia have already agreed, only three. Since you, me, and Jim have all said we'd go for it.

If enough people commit to no lynch (or possibly to lynching nqt in the current gamestate - there's no way to force him to become a mally if he chooses not to mug or graverob), I can't see why the mafia would TURN DOWN winning. It would be pretty crazy. If the hammer threshold of cooperators is reached, there's no risk.

The plan after the point at which the crown owner claims would be really straightforward, btw: the crown owner and one other player should mug each other while everyone else turtles. Anyone caught mugging improperly would then be lynched.

I'm not claiming my hat yet.

[Knightwing64]

Oooo, I wanna win

[notquitethere]

If I got some other wincon in the future I would play to it, but rule 0 in mafia is play to win condition you have. You don't sabotage your own team with the hope of being recruited into a cult in future. If all mafia won, then that wouldn't be a win for NQT-As-He-Currently-Is. And this is my wincon:

Town win when all mafia players are eliminated.

I'm going to draw a line in the sand here: any players pushing for the Mafia Ally plan are either mafia or team-sabotaging town players who deserve to be modkilled.

[Lenglon]

I'm willing to be friendly and cooperate if the maf step forward, so add me provisionally to your list of cooperative players, just right now I see no reason to trust maf who are unwilling to take that first step.

NQT: by your logic, how would anyone ever become Hat Tyrant without being modkilled for playing against their own team?

[notquitethere]

NQT: by your logic, how would anyone ever become Hat Tyrant without being modkilled for playing against their own team?

Running a backup win-condition on the side is fine, but publicly agitating for your current team to lose seems a bit too much. Also Hat Tyranny is in the spirit of the game, whereas breaking the setup clearly isn't.

[notquitethere]

Or another way to put it: I play mafia to contest my will in a free-form puzzle and game of deception. Everyone pressing the I-Win button might get them a technical 'win' but it isn't a true victory.

[Maximum Spin]

rule 0 in mafia is play to win condition you have.

Isn't that a dumb mafiascum rule? I don't like them and I don't play by their rules. Obviously.

Anyway, I don't believe that this is against the spirit of the game regardless. Egan's been saying "I want to make a setup where people can choose their own win conditions" for ages.

[Lenglon]

NQT:

EGAN: What actually happens if votes are tied?

We can just vote no-elimination, we don't have to force a tie or whatever.

Or you could eliminate any dissenters to The Plan. Enemies are all around you!
Just saying.

I think the mod is fine with the current discussion.

Max: I am currently assuming you have the crown and your partner is avoiding the current discussion so you won't have all your eggs in one basket. I believe with me added to your roster you have the majority you needed to begin the "everyone wins" plan. Are you willing to step forward now, or should I be coordinating a massclaim to begin forcing a town-mechanically-solves-the-game play? The murder crown last-second-buff did help but there's enough ways to confirm town players to make it still barely possible for town to win without scumhunting. And you know this already based on this post:

Well, it's possible to get a minimum of three confirmed townies on day 1, so.

In both worlds, people should be claiming their hats. What's your hat?

[Maximum Spin]

Max: I am currently assuming you have the crown and your partner is avoiding the current discussion so you won't have all your eggs in one basket. I believe with me added to your roster you have the majority you needed to begin the "everyone wins" plan. Are you willing to step forward now

Honestly, I thought it was obvious from the beginning. I was shocked when nqt voted Fallacy and not me. I literally opened with it.

I was kind of hoping nobody else had noticed the other thing since nobody brought it up.

I wanted to wait until at least KW or web had given a firm yes or no, but I guess you've decided to force my hand. Rudely.

I hope everyone has at least learned a valuable lesson about why an open setup can't be fully determinate. Or at least you all will when you eventually see where I fully explained the problem in PMs. For now I'm not going to explain the details since, even if Lenglon also knows them, as few people knowing them as possible is better for me.

[Lenglon]

No Lynch: My word is good.

[notquitethere]

I was shocked when nqt voted Fallacy and not me. I literally opened with it.

I'm happy to vote for Maximum Spin if you prefer. Can't vote all of you at the same time, unfortunately.

[Maximum Spin]

My intention is to hammer no lynch when possible, and at the same time declare my mugging target. I intend to award it to Fallacy for being the first to agree, but you can discuss amongst yourselves if you disagree. I'll follow consensus.

By the way, Lenglon: I know it looks like there might be a certain uncontrolled variable in the plan, but there actually isn't. It's sewn up. I assume you will understand what this means.

[Lenglon]

Don't overestimate me. it's PAIN in the morning in my timezone. I hadn't actually solved anything and was bluffing. I saw enough to be fairly sure a solution exists, but I'm not awake enough to actually solve the game right now.