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[Maximum Spin]

I believe the game is already broken.

[Egan_BW]

Oh, yeah. Sorry Egan but the fact that a town player is guaranteed to start with the Ghastly Gibus is exploitable, isn't it?

My lawyers are telling me not to answer that question.

[FallacyofUrist]

Not as broken as before, at least, but I think we can get two confirmed townies by Day 2? Depends on whether mugging resolves before or after a power hat action.

Facts: mac can't use town power hats. Town player starts with the Gibus. So... Gibus player claims, doc doesn't claim, doc protects Gibus, Gibus wearer surviving to Day 2 results in a confirmed townie? Or if the Gibus dies it means the doc hat wearer is scum. Easy peasy?

Egan: does mugging resolve before or after power hat resolution?

[Maximum Spin]

Dude, it's way more broken than that.

Although if we're going to break the game, we should just have the mafia hat owner claim, then form up into an orderly queue to mug him and all win as mafia-allies.

[FallacyofUrist]

Fun as that would be, it's not possible for everyone to win like that, I think. Once the number of town players is two, the mafia and all mafia allies win. So once four town players have been converted the game ends.

We could execute one mafia player, and thus convert five players to mafia ally instead, but that still leaves us with one townie unable to win.

More importantly that's not really in line with the spirit of the rules.

[Maximum Spin]

Well, it's possible to get a minimum of three confirmed townies on day 1, so.

[Egan_BW]

Egan: does mugging resolve before or after power hat resolution?

There's no resolution order. Mugging considers the pool of hats the target possesses at the start of the night, but won't prevent any actions from happening.

[FallacyofUrist]

Nevermind, technically speaking, every player can win, assuming kills resolve simultaneously with muggings.

Here's how it works.

We execute the mafia player not holding the crown, then do an orderly chain of muggings - hammering no elimination every day - until there is one dead mafia player, one living mafia player, four living mafia allies, and two townies. One of the mafia-allies has the vigilante hat, and the last remaining mafia player has the crown.

Now, during the last Night, the mafia player kills one of the townies, the town player not targeted by the mafiakill mugs the mafia player for the crown, and the mafia ally holding the vigilante hat shoots the last mafia player.

Action resolution, actions trigger simultaneously. Both the last mafia player and one of the two town players die simultaneously, and the other town player becomes mafia ally.

End result: 6 living mafia allies, 2 dead mafia, number of living mafia equals the number of living town, mafia win.

As mafia win, all mafia allies win.

Eight victories.

I'm sure we can exploit the fact that both wincons can trigger simultaneously in other ways, too.

[FallacyofUrist]

Egan: does mugging resolve before or after power hat resolution?

There's no resolution order. Mugging considers the pool of hats the target possesses at the start of the night, but won't prevent any actions from happening.

Okay! Fantastic!

See the plan I posted above.

Guess we can make every player win now, assuming every player cooperates.

I mean, I'm not sure it's in the spirit of the game to go through with this plan, but on the other paw, we could all win... assuming there's no catches in the rules I missed or sudden exploit patches.

[Egan_BW]

Also Mafia Ally counts as being town for counting the wincon, so you could convert everyone, and then you'd have to kill 4 of them? I dunno are you really winning if you're being ritually sacrificed. Nowhere near as sweet a victory as being HAT TYRANT.

[FallacyofUrist]

I believe the game is already broken.

You think?

[Maximum Spin]

one of the two town players die [...] End result: 6 living mafia allies, 2 dead mafia, number of living mafia equals the number of living town, mafia win.

Remind me never to ask you to do math.

[FallacyofUrist]

Also Mafia Ally counts as being town for counting the wincon, so you could convert everyone, and then you'd have to kill 4 of them? I dunno are you really winning if you're being ritually sacrificed. Nowhere near as sweet a victory as being HAT TYRANT.

Hm.

This makes things trickier, but still theoretically doable.

Right.

We would eliminate the non crown holding mafia player Day 1, then every day there is a mafia-ally player alive but not holding the crown, we eliminate them via ritual vote.

This would eventually result in the situation where there is one living mafia player holding the crown, and two living town players, at which point... um. Hmmm.

At which point we can get to one living mafia ally player, at which point town win, but that means nobody wins.

May need to give this some more thought.

one of the two town players die [...] End result: 6 living mafia allies, 2 dead mafia, number of living mafia equals the number of living town, mafia win.

Remind me never to ask you to do math.

Um hum. Whoops.

[FallacyofUrist]

Oh wait we can just convert everyone to mafia allies, then execute mafia allies until the number of mafia allies equals the number of living mafia, at which point mafia win because mafia allies count as town for wincon counts, but that means everyone wins.

That's even easier.

[Maximum Spin]

Oh wait we can just convert everyone to mafia allies, then execute mafia allies until the number of mafia allies equals the number of living mafia, at which point mafia win because mafia allies count as town for wincon counts, but that means everyone wins.

That's even easier.

Yes, this is the much easier plan. I'm open to it if everyone else is.