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[webadict]

The thing is Max's claimed action can be verified by the target. Egan, did you get anything from Max?

Also, I have reason to think many people can multi-action at night.

This is true, but I trust Maximum Spin's ability to read Knightwing, and I think he's grossly misread Knightwing here.

[webadict]

But, like I said, I'm far more confident of Jim Groovester than I am Maximum Spin. I can be convinced rather easily to vote Jim first.

[Lenglon]

Right now Jim has zero verifiable claims, since his claims so far could trivially have been copied from the public claims of others. He also hasn't put his thoughts forward in any meaningful way. As a result I don't mind lynching him, but I don't personally have any evidence against him. I don't know Jim's meta, despite having seen his play several times. I think I would need a very large sample set to get a handle on it. I look forward to when you are at your computer and can make a proper case.

[Shakerag]

I've been wondering about Jim.  I'm getting more of a "preoccupied IRL" vibe than anything else.  Makes me wonder if he is scum, because I think he'd put in at least a bit more effort into maintaining his image if so ...

[webadict]

I'm not going to do anything super extensive, because long cases get ignored. Or I'm lazy, whatever you wanna believe.

So, here's a brief synopsis of what I'm not a fan of from Jim Groovester.

- Playwise, he was essentially AFK for the entirety of Day 1. This is a minor thing that most scum are guilty of, but he has also given relatively no useful information on Day 2.
- He was very much willing to Hammer TricMagic, as seen here. On its own, this isn't super bad, but when combined with that he complained about Roden Hammering TricMagic in #195 and that metawise, Jim Groovester avoids steering the Town away from bad executions as scum, preferring to let them do their own dirty work while he avoids stirring the pot. (I could probably link a few games where he mentions his tactics in scumchat, but I'm a little too lazy to find them. You can take my word for it or not, that's completely fair. It's a tactic many scum players use, so that's not exactly meta-specific.) I usually believe in Jim trying to stop rash decisions, especially mine.
- Now, to defend Jim slightly, he was pushing for some suspicion on TricMagic early, but I dislike that he's pointing out that Roden Hammered TricMagic for dubious reasons when Jim LITERALLY SAID HE WAS GOING TO HAMMER TRICMAGIC.
- Jim has no proven claims, claiming something after Roden had claimed it.
- There is also the fact that Jim Groovester has now tracked Roden twice in a row. There's something to be said about Roden being suspicious, but that's such an easy target that it lends itself to being a slightly scummy pick.

Extremely short version: Jim hasn't participated, can't be verified, and made some weird accusations against Roden for something he was also guilty of?

[Jim Groovester]

I'm not super interested in this game. I get bored shitless if all we're doing is discussing role results.

Also I've been playing a lot of Noita and playing that interests me a lot more than playing mafia right now.

Anyways, webadict's wrong, I am town. I am the recipient of Maximum Spin's gift. I received a very minor upgrade to one of my abilities. I can verify that he acted during N1.

And therefore a dilemma is presented: Knightwing64, a verified role blocker, claims he blocked Maximum Spin, but Maximum Spin, who claimed first, didn't claim to be blocked. Furthermore, I can verify that Maximum Spin acted. How could this dilemma be resolved?

webadict reaching the conclusion that Maximum Spin performed the kill but was blocked is an extremely hasty one and not one you would immediately accept if you thought about it for ten seconds longer. Clearly there is something more going on here but webadict either didn't think about it or doesn't want to think about it for whatever reason.

Jim sucks

Fuck you you suck.

Jim was going to hammer

TricMagic looked a lot like forfeiting scum which was why it was really stupid of him to self-vote in that situation. I was perfectly able and willing to hammer but I checked to make sure discussion would not be cut short by doing so, something Roden knowingly or unknowingly did.

Jim doesn't have any verifiable actions.

I do have a (one shot) action that is verifiable, assuming I don't get blocked, but I also don't give enough of a shit to propose using it to prove anything.

I can act while I'm dead (under certain special circumstances) so I could prove my abilities from there but at that point there would be no mystery that I'm telling the truth. I also don't really want to be dead, for reasons that would be immediately apparent if you saw my flip.

[Lenglon]

I'm not super interested in this game. I get bored shitless if all we're doing is discussing role results.

What is your opinion of the D1 dispute between me and Roden?

What is your opinion of Max?

What is your opinion of Shakerag?

and finally, Are you the person telling Shakerag "fuck you" repeatedly?

[Jim Groovester]

I'm not super interested in this game. I get bored shitless if all we're doing is discussing role results.

What is your opinion of the D1 dispute between me and Roden?

I've completely forgotten what it was about but I remember thinking there was a possibility it was a town v town slap fight.

What is your opinion of Max?

Likely town for reasons I won't articulate.

What is your opinion of Shakerag?

Probably town for reasons I don't want to go through the effort of articulating. The scheming between you and webadict and him factors into it to some degree.

and finally, Are you the person telling Shakerag "fuck you" repeatedly?

I fucking wish I was.

[Lenglon]

Also, I didn't say you don't have any verifiable Actions. your claimed track action is verifiable IF you use it on me, and claim the result before I claim the next day. There's other ways to verify a Track as well. The problem is that you don't have any verifiable Claims. Your claimed tracks have not only been after the person you tracked claimed their action, but after it had been verified or checked by a third party on top of that. That is so late as to not provide any useful info. For example, if today you had claimed where Roden had gone before Shakerag claimed the redirect, that would have verified your claim.

[Lenglon]

for example, today my priority was to provide verification of myself, because I didn't have a high probability of catching out scum last night, as a result I claimed quickly and in detail. I am likely to be slower to claim tomorrow now that I've established that baseline.

[Jim Groovester]

Tracks can catch fakeclaims which is why I waited for my target to claim first.

I left a hint on Day 1 about my claim to prove I wasn't just making shit up but day 2 moved too fast for me to bring it up before it was irrelevant.

Anyways, I'll stop tracking targets now since I can't anymore anyway. I'll be sure to use my other abilities that also don't immediately prove that I acted instead. Except for the one that is verifiable which I will not use until later.

[Lenglon]

Okay.

Web mentioned that you tracking Roden twice in a row was odd, could you please explain that choice?

[Jim Groovester]

On Night 0 I randomed and ended up with Roden.

On Night 1 I really didn't like Roden hammering, so I tracked him to see what he got up to.

[Jim Groovester]

I'll point out that Roden was not an unpopular choice for night actions since at least Shakerag targeted him in addition to me.

[webadict]

Yeah, Lenglon is correct.

The burden of proof is proportional to the amount of trust given to you by the Town. Lenglon is going to have a lower burden of proof than most, since both Shakerag and I can verify several of her claims before they were claimed. Jim has only claimed after things were claimed, or been cryptic, as in the case of the track. The Track itself is even more suspect because it was an unnecessary obfuscation since, by his own admission, there's no reason to fakeclaim on N0.

So, essentially, everyone must prove themselves somehow.

Additionally, since I've now just pointed out that Maximum Spin and Jim Groovester are a potential team (before Jim or Max made mention of each other, mind you), I cannot trust Jim's claim of receiving a trinket from Maximum Spin, since Knightwing's Roleblock would still be accounted for.

Tracks can catch fakeclaims which is why I waited for my target to claim first.

I left a hint on Day 1 about my claim to prove I wasn't just making shit up but day 2 moved too fast for me to bring it up before it was irrelevant.

Anyways, I'll stop tracking targets now since I can't anymore anyway. I'll be sure to use my other abilities that also don't immediately prove that I acted instead. Except for the one that is verifiable which I will not use until later.

And now you cannot track. This does seem quite convenient for you.

On Night 0 I randomed and ended up with Roden.

On Night 1 I really didn't like Roden hammering, so I tracked him to see what he got up to.

You said you were going to hammer. This would have been before Roden justified it. Roden's Hammer was stupid, but not necessarily suspicious UNTIL he justified it poorly on Day 2. So, are you admitting that you hammering would've also been suspicious?

I'll point out that Roden was not an unpopular choice for night actions since at least Shakerag targeted him in addition to me.

Heh. If only you saw what I wrote to Roden and Lenglon, you'd understand. Personally, I think Shakerag is a lesser target to deal with, since he's actually been quite cooperative, and he's offered information before it was verified, making him far more trustworthy. I'd also like to point out that pointing at someone else for doing something you did is not a defense.