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[webadict]

Banning self voting is restrictive. There are situations where a player would want to self-vote, such as outted scum at L-1 to end discussions preemptively.

Banning self voting loses creativity. Look at how scum!Roden voted themselves in this game to appear more town.

Self-voting is somewhat fine in non-Beginner games. In a Beginner game, voting yourself is almost always bad. I think it'd be better to just have the scum be able to surrender one of themselves by internal vote, since that's the only decent use of the self-voting.

[Lenglon]

Or allow scum to selfhammer to end discussion with ScumHammer

[EuchreJack]

Ultimately, each mod is going to decide on their own. Adapting to various mods is a good skill for newbies to learn as well.

[FallacyofUrist]

Banning self voting is restrictive. There are situations where a player would want to self-vote, such as outted scum at L-1 to end discussions preemptively.

Banning self voting loses creativity. Look at how scum!Roden voted themselves in this game to appear more town.

Note that Roden voted himself to mimic the two town players that self-voted earlier. Blending in, yes. But it only had a precedent within the game space.

Essentially? Self voting is only situationally useful, and the situations where it is useful are rare. The whole reason why I'd rather ban it is that it's better to learn the Day game without that tool being available, and then have it available later once you already have the basics under your belt.

I'm saying this game would have been better if two town players didn't have the ability to throw in the towel like that. In one case a town player literally hammered himself for no utility-based reason. In an advanced game, it's better to have the tool available, but maybe we're better off without it in beginner's games?

There have been newbie-friendly games in the more recent past like IcyTea's Vanilla Tea Mafia in which every player had a power, but were still very unlike the past few BBYORs. That game had a strong focus on reads, and even when it didn't, the mechanical analysis involved was far less complex and still did not directly out scum. It could not be considered a bastard game, the roles had a certain logic, and newer players weren't forced to consider godfathers, millers, etc. Perhaps it would be possible to create a BYOR resembling that game.

This is a good thing to consider.

Anyone here read or played Mostly Vanilla Mafia 1 or 2? It's entirely possible to have all power-role games set within a certain bound of sanity, skipping things like meta-roles (like Shakerag's) that would make things radically more complex. Have each setup be developed by a pair of mods for sanity's sake.

I like the thought of that.

I kinda agree with this take, though I'm not sure what constitutes the simpler aspect (I disagree with that portion, probably.)

But, Jim's kinda right. Night 0 made things very tech focused, and I think the end goal is to make it more Day-oriented. Maybe a lot of this was to stop thinking so hard about the tech and to focus on the ex(ecutes). This does push a very specific version of Mafia, but it leaves the Beginner aspect behind. We SHOULD be pushing a Day focus, but I don't think we should leave the Night game out of that entirely. If there was a good way to balance that, it'd be for the best, but... I'd say there probably isn't an easy way.

It did feel like the game was moving simultaneously too fast and too slow at the same time, and the whiplash hurt.

Night 0 was an experiment that had to happen at least once, given how people complained so much about RVS.

Clearly it doesn't work so well. The idea of a 'Setup' type ability that resolves before game start might be a good one, though. Just enough results and publicly visible effects to make the first Day a bit more interesting, but not enough to completely overtake things.

I do think the complexity, combined with Night 0, really heavily weighted this game towards Night mechanics. I'll fault myself for the excessive complexity. I don't think it would be that bad for a non-Beginners' game, but my complexity-addiction got the better of me here.

I think the previous way of doing beginner games was sufficient, and having a couple of different setups made it slightly less formulaic.

I think possibly we should work from that rather than having everyone as a PR.

I think this point has already been stated, but there are fewer new people interested in near-mountainous setups than there are people interested in higher power setups. The goal should be to ease players into the kind of game more frequently run on Bay 12, I think.

But we do still need to make Beginners' games suitable for teaching the basics of Day play and such, which I failed at in this setup. Honestly something like Mostly Vanilla Mafia 1 would have been perfect.