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[MorleyDev]

To quote Doctor Who: "You just want cruelty to beget cruelty. You're not superior to people who were cruel to you. You're just a whole bunch of new cruel people. A whole bunch of new cruel people, being cruel to some other people, who'll end up being cruel to you. The only way anyone can live in peace is if they're prepared to forgive. Why don't you break the cycle?"

[hector13]

‘cause then nobody gets their revenge, and then nobody gets their revenge on them, and then nobody gets their revenge on them, ad infinitum.

[Magmacube_tr]

To quote Doctor Who: "You just want cruelty to beget cruelty. You're not superior to people who were cruel to you. You're just a whole bunch of new cruel people. A whole bunch of new cruel people, being cruel to some other people, who'll end up being cruel to you."

Huh? I guess I really have no retort to that. Should've been obvious. The cycle of cruelty. Maybe not doing the killing will be the thing that sets the example.

But it all so easy to for the cycle to start again if it is not written in words that people cannot ignore. And victories taken with such humility are not remembered as much as ones marked with terror.

I guess that's the main catch here. A different form of retribution that is still widely proclaimed. Maybe the Middle East got to my head.

[MaxTheFox]

Why put him in prison? There are plenty of ways of slowly killing people. Why imprison them instead making them beg for death?

If some revolution does happen, I wish to see the Red Square getting a new coat of paint and hear a ballad of screams. They should publically execute all of the Russian oligarchs and their kin. Man, woman, children. Young and the elderly.

Sure, it would be cruel to kill kids. But in my almost entire 19 years of life in the Middle Fucking East, I know better than be "moral" and "sensible" in a situation like this. You go all out. You set a vicious example. No holding back. No humanity shown. Those pretty sentimental things are afforded to ones who have afforded them to you first when they should've. Showing humanity is just a waste on such people.

It would be a good little sidenote in history that future generations can use to taunt their own tyrants. A note written with blood.

As is long due.

No. As ruthless as I am, I would not kill their children. They are innocent, and I don't kill innocents.

Enjoying the suffering of other people IS NOT OK. Even enjoying imagining their sufferings IS NOT OK. Sometimes it is emotionally unavoidable, believe me, I experienced rage and hate many many times and mind becomes... "creative". But I know that nothing good can come out of sadism.

I do want to slowly torture Putin and the Russian oligarchs to death over several days, however. Or just shoot them. Whatever. Their happiness or suffering holds literally zero moral vaue to me at this point. As long as they all die...

I mean, it's not like Russia has a long and fairly bloody history of exactly what you're calling for happening and then the new regime is generally just as bad if not outright worse.

Like seriously dude, this is fucking Russia you're talking about, the textbook example of "Bloody revolution ends up making things shit for everyone involved and then some"

There is absolutely no other way here. The only way is to kill them all and deport their families. Peaceful protest won't do shit even if half of the city population somehow is convinced to do so. Peace was never an option. Historical precedent is worthless, you need to look at the facts on the ground.

To quote Doctor Who: "You just want cruelty to beget cruelty. You're not superior to people who were cruel to you. You're just a whole bunch of new cruel people. A whole bunch of new cruel people, being cruel to some other people, who'll end up being cruel to you. The only way anyone can live in peace is if they're prepared to forgive. Why don't you break the cycle?"

Because it is not possible to make peace with them. I would choose to break the cycle if it was possible. But alas.

It's also not about method. I never said I wasn't as much or more cruel to my enemies than them. But at least I respect human rights. That is what matters.
To the doves here, give me a single reason to believe a peaceful revolution is at all viable. What the fuck do you all propose? For us to hug and sing "Imagine" with the oligarchs?

[hector13]

Rise up and protest. They can’t throw everyone in jail.

https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20190513-it-only-takes-35-of-people-to-change-the-world

[MaxTheFox]

Rise up and protest. They can’t throw everyone in jail.

https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20190513-it-only-takes-35-of-people-to-change-the-world

What a pile of bullshit, they will just ignore protests, even on massive scales. You are a child. That's not how authoritarian governments work.

[hector13]

Rise up and protest. They can’t throw everyone in jail.

https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20190513-it-only-takes-35-of-people-to-change-the-world

What a pile of bullshit, they will just ignore protests, even on massive scales. You are a child. That's not how authoritarian governments work.

Clearly the authoritarian governments that fell to non-violent protests were not authoritarian enough?

Never mind we’ve had the talking past each other thing already we don’t need to do again.

[MaxTheFox]

Rise up and protest. They can’t throw everyone in jail.

https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20190513-it-only-takes-35-of-people-to-change-the-world

What a pile of bullshit, they will just ignore protests, even on massive scales. You are a child. That's not how authoritarian governments work.

Clearly the authoritarian governments that fell to non-violent protests were not authoritarian enough?

Actually, yes. They weren't as entrenched as the Putinist regime is.

You and your fellow Imagine singers just don't understand.

[hector13]

Apparently we do.

What I don’t understand is what you think happens after Putin and his cronies are murdered. What do you think will happen?

[MorleyDev]

Peaceful protest largely relies upon you being dealing with people that largely give a shit. Ghandi himself said that what he did wouldn't have worked with the German Nazi Party, for example.

Ideally, assuming successful revolution of some kind, rather than mass executions you'd have Russian Neuburg Trials, establish the criminality under the new system and use that as legal precedent, imprison them for their gross breaches of said legal precedant. When not dealing with immediate threat, I tend to regard death over imprisonment as vengeance vs justice, death is for people's satisfaction and a legal system isn't there for people's satisfaction.

[MaxTheFox]

Apparently we do.

What I don’t understand is what you think happens after Putin and his cronies are murdered. What do you think will happen?

I don't really know either. I'm willing to take the risk.

Peaceful protest largely relies upon you being dealing with people that largely give a shit. Ghandi himself said that what he did wouldn't have worked with the German Nazi Party, for example.

Ideally, assuming successful revolution of some kind, rather than mass executions you'd have Russian Neuburg Trials, establish the criminality under the new system and use that as legal precedent, imprison them for their gross breaches of said legal precedant. When not dealing with immediate threat, I tend to regard death over imprisonment as vengeance vs justice, death is for people's satisfaction and a legal system isn't there for people's satisfaction.

Honestly, now that I calmed down a bit, I'd be fine with that too. As long as they are removed from Russian society and politics. That's what matters to me.

[bloop_bleep]

To previous conversation:

No, of course do not kill innocent people. People are responsible for their own actions and nothing else. It is unacceptable, it is not even on the scale between ideal solutions and practical solutions.

[hector13]

Apparently we do.

What I don’t understand is what you think happens after Putin and his cronies are murdered. What do you think will happen?

I don't really know either. I'm willing to take the risk.

What makes you think a violent uprising will be more successful than a non-violent one, given that Putin controls all the apparatus to put a violent uprising down, from law enforcement, to the military and intelligence services?

[MaxTheFox]

Apparently we do.

What I don’t understand is what you think happens after Putin and his cronies are murdered. What do you think will happen?

I don't really know either. I'm willing to take the risk.

What makes you think a violent uprising will be more successful than a non-violent one, given that Putin controls all the apparatus to put a violent uprising down, from law enforcement, to the military and intelligence services?

What makes you think a non-violent uprising will succeed at all?

If the people become radicalized enough, I feel a violent revolt will be more likely to succeed, especially if part of the army and governors side with the rebels.

[hector13]

Apparently we do.

What I don’t understand is what you think happens after Putin and his cronies are murdered. What do you think will happen?

I don't really know either. I'm willing to take the risk.

What makes you think a violent uprising will be more successful than a non-violent one, given that Putin controls all the apparatus to put a violent uprising down, from law enforcement, to the military and intelligence services?

What makes you think a non-violent uprising will succeed at all?

If the people become radicalized enough, I feel a violent revolt will be more likely to succeed, especially if part of the army and governors side with the rebels.

Why would they side with the rebels when they’re being paid by the government? Equally so, radicalized people don’t magically become de-radicalized when they win. If there’s factional disputes, theey’ll turn on each other, too.

Non-violent uprisings have advantages over violent ones, as per the article I linked earlier:

• More people will be able to take part because it’s not limited to healthy people able and willing to engage in violence.
• Able to be organized and discussed in the open because you’re not talking about engaging in violence against the government, plus no need to source weapons.
• Security personnel may be less inclined to put down a non-violent protest by force because they’re not being violent, plus the risk of hurting loved ones because of the aforementioned “open to all” nature of non-violent protest.
• Media coverage will be harder to spin against the protesters if they’re non-violent, compared to a violent one. Equally so, violence against non-violent protesters is going to be much harder to justify in the media, even if it’s state-controlled. Word of mouth from protesters and observers will get around

I think non-violent protests are harder to put down than violent ones. A violent protest justifies a violent response. A non-violent protest will probably get more support if it’s put down violently, which rather defeats the purpose of putting it down in the first place.