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[EuchreJack]

http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=179709.msg8375333#msg8375333

While 16 year olds committing arson under the flimsiest of reasons is common, I wonder if their being near draft age had something to do with it.

[Lord Shonus]

Quoting from the news topic:

Meanwhile, it looks like Italy offers Ukraine to capitulate

• bilateral agreement between Ukraine and Russia on Crimea and Donbas: at the suggestion of the Italian authorities, the "disputed territories" will have full autonomy with the right to ensure their own security, but sovereignty over the regions will belong to Kyiv

This is a horrible, horrible idea. Putin shouldn't be given any concessions. What kind of asshole proposes this kind of stuff?

The terms seem very carefully crafted to sound quite reasonable, but Russia will never accept them. This lets Italy present themselves as a peacemaker and counter the (absurd) claims that the West is "forcing" Ukraine into this war.

[martinuzz]

Quoting from the news topic:

Meanwhile, it looks like Italy offers Ukraine to capitulate

• bilateral agreement between Ukraine and Russia on Crimea and Donbas: at the suggestion of the Italian authorities, the "disputed territories" will have full autonomy with the right to ensure their own security, but sovereignty over the regions will belong to Kyiv

This is a horrible, horrible idea. Putin shouldn't be given any concessions. What kind of asshole proposes this kind of stuff?

Doesn't really sound like concessions to me. It not only denies Russia the possibility of annexing Donbas, it also requires them to give back Crimea to Ukraine.

[EuchreJack]

Hm, missed the part about Crimea.  Anything that can dislodge Crimea from the Russian Yoke in any way warrants consideration, I would think from the pro-Ukrainian point of view.

[Strongpoint]

Hm, missed the part about Crimea.  Anything that can dislodge Crimea from the Russian Yoke in any way warrants consideration, I would think from the pro-Ukrainian point of view.

Any plan that starts with something like "1) ceasefire and Russian troops stay while we discuss the rest in UN style (for years\decades)." is unacceptable and will only allow Russia to cement its brutal occupation and prepare for the next attack when it will decide that conditions favor it.

[EuchreJack]

I also should probably actually read the damn document before commenting.
The devil is in the details.

Pro: "a ceasefire in Ukraine and the demilitarization of the front line under UN supervision"
Harder to commit genocide with UN observers.  Ideally, UN forces would take over the front lines entirely.

Con: "The plan stipulates that Russian troops are then withdrawn from Ukraine."
This is at the end, implying that removal of Russia Troops isn't a priority Day 1.  Hence Strongpoint's concerns.

And I'll repeat: Review of the ACTUAL DOCUMENT submitted to the UN is required.  I hardly trust any news media outlet to correctly distill any official document.
The only thing I could find relevant was this document, which didn't come from Italy alone.

As I mentioned in the news thread, Italy is under pressure to end the war by any means necessary.

I'm irritated that Italy's opposition party, and frankly others in the World, even the US, are choosing to frame the issue as "Funding Ukraine means starvation in Africa".
Er, no.  Russia INVADING Ukraine means starvation in Africa.  If Russia LEAVES, the starvation ends.  And letting the Russians HAVE Ukraine doesn't guarantee food exports will increase.  In fact, it's likely to go the other way.

Also, here is a dirty little secret about the United States: We have enough food to fully feed Africa.  We refuse to do it because it is not profitable for US.

[heydude6]

I don't think Ukraine or its people will ever forgive the West if they allow Russia's plans for genocide to happen.

[EuchreJack]

I don't think Ukraine or its people will ever forgive the West if they allow Russia's plans for genocide to happen.

I would hope the West wouldn't forgive itself if they allow Russia's plans for genocide to happen.

There is a lot of support for continuing aid to Ukraine.  It's mainly just wing jobs, has-bens, and naive opportunists that think otherwise. 
So the fringes that disagree on anything.

[nenjin]

The Ukrainian mother of my boss' exchange student (who is basically his daughter now too) just arrived, and they all came to work today. It felt pretty nice to tell her Welcome to America. It's been a long road for her to get here.

[EuchreJack]

Glad to hear it!

[Strongpoint]

I believe that Russia needs an operational pause way more than Ukraine.

They need time to build forward bases on already occupied territories and organize better logistics, they need to find and eliminate growing guerilla movements, they need to train reservists, they need to give their troops some time to recover, they need to repair a lot of military hardware (combat damage, general wear and tear, restoration of vehicles from long-term storage), they need time to transfer more stuff from Siberia, etc.

Ukraine is very ahead in mobilization and training of reservists (Russia has only a limited hidden mobilization), we already have forward bases, we have a better ability to rotate troops (except in semi-encircled areas in Donbass, where it is problematic), we don't have a dire need to fix military hardware ASAP because we are getting it from many places in already working condition.

[MaxTheFox]

http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=179709.msg8375333#msg8375333

While 16 year olds committing arson under the flimsiest of reasons is common, I wonder if their being near draft age had something to do with it.

Based.
And yeah, the West should not give any concessions to Russia, or Russia will tear Ukraine apart piece by piece. Help Ukraine fight for as long as possible until Russia tires out.

[EuchreJack]

So, Russian High Command should have played Shadow Empire extensively before launching their invasion.  Then they would have know better.

[MaxTheFox]

So, Russian High Command should have played Shadow Empire extensively before launching their invasion.  Then they would have know better.

Added to wish list.

[Il Palazzo]

I don't get the comparison. They would then expect their troops to be eaten by 27 metre tall squid analogues?