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Author Topic: (SG) Petty Kingdom of New Mahallo: Reign of King Arawn  (Read 20108 times)

Fluffe9911

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Re: (SG) Petty Kingdom of New Mahallo: Reign of King Arawn
« Reply #390 on: September 05, 2021, 12:50:26 am »

He is an elf and a dragon worshiper, both identities punishable by death under Imperial Law.
Sheesh Im all for elf hate/bigotry and all that but what the hell did the elves do for their very existance to be punishable by death?

Anyway Acknowledge ourselves as his rightful lord but point out the many of reasons we are not publicly able to offer protection torward him im sure he is reasonable enough to understand that publicly accepting him would be political suicide and should be content with a unoffical acceptance.

Permit Anne to undertake the ritual Ill let other people decide if we should partake im kinda iffy on the whole getting possessed thing.

Accept the challenge do it personally We can always get a new one I mean we literally just got it and the Orc guy literally sent it to us just to be a cocky bastard anyway
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Shadowclaw777

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Re: (SG) Petty Kingdom of New Mahallo: Reign of King Arawn
« Reply #391 on: September 05, 2021, 12:59:54 am »

Tell Blueblaize Three-Hoards that under different circumstances we would gladly like to openly accept different kinds of worship, however the Imperial Rule that supports most of our military and economic power means we have to constrict ourselves to others. We have to politely tell him we can’t publicly accept him as a vassal openly, however we can acknowledge us as his rightful overlord secretly, also knowing that there may be a possibility that Korrag’s spirits that are spying on this conversation we would like write letters stating this in Imperial back to him?. Maybe we can gain information on why Dragon God worship is outlawed in Imperial lands, and ask him the about the reasoning behind it?

King Arawn and if Anne wants too, then yes why not brief divine-dragon possession for both of us, because why not I imagine it’s a thing that you should cross off your bucket list

As for the Old Man’s Challenge, tell him that because he’s probably an extremely experienced veteran if he came to us in Orc-lands for a duel for our sling, that we would like to see a basic show of his might with a sling before we can consider the challenge, he’s more than likely withholding critical information
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IronyOwl

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Re: (SG) Petty Kingdom of New Mahallo: Reign of King Arawn
« Reply #392 on: September 05, 2021, 01:33:35 am »

+1 to discretely accepting fealty and both of us getting possessed, but decline the challenge. Explain that this is a gift from the orc king himself, so it'd be quite rude to lose it in a wager before we've had a chance to kill him with it.
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King Zultan

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Re: (SG) Petty Kingdom of New Mahallo: Reign of King Arawn
« Reply #393 on: September 05, 2021, 04:24:15 am »

Tell Blueblaize Three-Hoards that under different circumstances we would gladly like to openly accept different kinds of worship, however the Imperial Rule that supports most of our military and economic power means we have to constrict ourselves to others. We have to politely tell him we can’t publicly accept him as a vassal openly, however we can acknowledge us as his rightful overlord secretly, also knowing that there may be a possibility that Korrag’s spirits that are spying on this conversation we would like write letters stating this in Imperial back to him?. Maybe we can gain information on why Dragon God worship is outlawed in Imperial lands, and ask him the about the reasoning behind it?

King Arawn and if Anne wants too, then yes why not brief divine-dragon possession for both of us, because why not I imagine it’s a thing that you should cross off your bucket list

As for the Old Man’s Challenge, tell him that because he’s probably an extremely experienced veteran if he came to us in Orc-lands for a duel for our sling, that we would like to see a basic show of his might with a sling before we can consider the challenge, he’s more than likely withholding critical information

+1
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mightymushroom

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Re: (SG) Petty Kingdom of New Mahallo: Reign of King Arawn
« Reply #394 on: September 05, 2021, 01:38:22 pm »

Sheesh Im all for elf hate/bigotry and all that but what the hell did the elves do for their very existance to be punishable by death?
Maybe we can gain information on why Dragon God worship is outlawed in Imperial lands, and ask him the about the reasoning behind it?
I thought that outlawing Dragon Gods is self-explanatory, in that worship of ascended dragons is by definition (Imperial definition, anyway) not worship of the ascended human, God-Empress Agusta. Anti-elf sentiment may have earlier origins, but no doubt is reinforced by the same idea: many (most?) elves may be older than Agusta herself, and wouldn't care much what a human had done anyhow.

----

Discreetly accept fealty
Allow the ceremony for both Arawn and Anne
Accept the challenge
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Fluffe9911

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Re: (SG) Petty Kingdom of New Mahallo: Reign of King Arawn
« Reply #395 on: September 05, 2021, 02:47:45 pm »

I thought that outlawing Dragon Gods is self-explanatory, in that worship of ascended dragons is by definition (Imperial definition, anyway) not worship of the ascended human, God-Empress Agusta. Anti-elf sentiment may have earlier origins, but no doubt is reinforced by the same idea: many (most?) elves may be older than Agusta herself, and wouldn't care much what a human had done anyhow.
Yeah the dragon god worship being outlawed/ a death sentence is pretty self explanatory but for a entire race to have the death penalty on their heads seems a bit extreme (even for the general time period which the setting seems based on) I mean you usually atleast use them for labor as slaves for a bit before killing them.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2021, 03:37:44 pm by Fluffe9911 »
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mightymushroom

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Re: (SG) Petty Kingdom of New Mahallo: Reign of King Arawn
« Reply #396 on: September 05, 2021, 03:33:42 pm »

I thought that outlawing Dragon Gods is self-explanatory, in that worship of ascended dragons is by definition (Imperial definition, anyway) not worship of the ascended human, God-Empress Agusta. Anti-elf sentiment may have earlier origins, but no doubt is reinforced by the same idea: many (most?) elves may be older than Agusta herself, and wouldn't care much what a human had done anyhow.
Yeah the dragon god worship being outlawed/ a death sentence is pretty self explanatory but for a entire race to have the death penalty on their heads seems a bit extreme (even for the general time period) I mean you usually atleast use them for labor as slaves for a bit before killing them.
*shrug* Aside from the difficulty of overlaying a given historical time period on a constructed setting (I don't remember slaves being talked about much at all), our introduction to raiding insinuated that Mahallo druids are superior to clerics at countering elf magics. Perhaps the Imperials think that elf captives are too dangerous to keep? In some ways, it is more surprising that the Mahallo traditions are as well tolerated as they are: likely because Agusta styled herself as a benefactor to all humans during her reign.
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Fluffe9911

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Re: (SG) Petty Kingdom of New Mahallo: Reign of King Arawn
« Reply #397 on: September 05, 2021, 03:44:46 pm »

*shrug* (I don't remember slaves being talked about much at all)
I dont think slavery has been exactly mentioned by name but some degree of forced labor for elf captives is implied to be used by the people of New Mahallo both during the start of our hunt and when it was mentioned elf captives are being made to transcribe those books for us (although no evidence of elf forced labor outside of New Mahallo so im assuming elves are just straight up executed in pretty much any other imperial country which technically makes New Mahallo more tolerable to elves than your average imperial nation funny enough if a bit more active in actively screwing with them with the raiding)
« Last Edit: September 05, 2021, 03:51:54 pm by Fluffe9911 »
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Shadowclaw777

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Re: (SG) Petty Kingdom of New Mahallo: Reign of King Arawn
« Reply #398 on: September 05, 2021, 04:22:42 pm »

Nah I'm a bit irritated and malding over the fact that elves are treated as below second class citizens, a possibility was to see if the moon elves were open to diplomacy before we went to go on and just raid them instead of a tournament or feast, now I'm sure any peaceful interaction between us and them is impossible. I mean I would want to know why Imperials and the Mahello raiders see the Elfs as pure heretical existing beings that exist against the dogma just for breathing?, like what have they done that has made them trigger their ire, from the Mahello side it seem that the Elves were in these lands first because of their extended lifespans and it seems like their haughtiness is what pissed off the Mahello people, or the Mahello people just wanted a claim of land and that mean that a conflict between them was always going to happen?, the reason I'm saying all of this, is there any reason based on morality on why the Moon Elves are considered evil except the fact that we are on a Dwarf Fortress forum? We saw a bunch of tolerated elves in the nameless city with their three eyes, so they seem capable of being civil and aren’t like cannibals. I imagine there has to be some underlying reason why Elves are considered vile for differing groups of people to consider them heretical to existence

Dragon God worship is weird because apparently the Imperial Faith teaches tolerance for the Mahello faith, but not for the Dragon Gods? Omegalol, is it because one is based on a non-human draconic god while Mahello faith is based on magical spirits and doesn’t seem innately humanistic except for being worshipped by other kinds of humans, why can one be tolerated and accepted and not the other? It has to because of who the majority of the worshippers are then, as well is it because apparently there was some draconic war against Imperial lands that is the main reason that they have outlawed worship?, a long-term goal that can be a possibility is to make the Imperial religion more pluralist of different kinds of worship and utilizing Marion’s prophecy to put this in motion, and it seems a goal we should pursue since two of our sycophants are Dragon worshippers as well as our Spymaster.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2021, 04:33:46 pm by Shadowclaw777 »
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Fluffe9911

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Re: (SG) Petty Kingdom of New Mahallo: Reign of King Arawn
« Reply #399 on: September 05, 2021, 04:37:13 pm »

Dragon God worship is weird because apparently the Imperial Faith teaches tolerance for the Mahello faith, but not for the Dragon Gods? Omegalol, is it because one is based on a non-human draconic god while Mahello faith is based on magical spirits and doesn’t seem innately humanistic except for being worshipped by other kinds of humans, why can one be tolerated and accepted and not the other? Is it because apparently there was some draconic war against Imperial lands that is the reason that they have outlawed worship?, a long-term goal I have in mind is to make the Imperial religion more pluralist of different kinds of worship and utilizing Marion’s prophecy to put this in motion, and it seems a goal we should pursue since two of our sycophants are Dragon worshippers as well as our Spymaster.
I think that ultimately comes down to politics more than anything else Imperial rulers were tolerant to Mahello majority beliefs as a means of reducing the odds they decide to revolt from the empire as they are a sizeable minority, the dragon worshippers are simply too small in number for defending there believes to be politically viable without a huge reform in the imperial religion and how it views other beliefs. Like if we decided for whatever reason tolerating Mahello beliefs isnt acceptable and we should start cracking down on their religion we would most likely receive little to no pushback from the majority of imperials (although probably major unrest and maybe even revolts from our own subjects)

Also yeah them worshipping sprits rather than dragons probably do making tolerating them easier to justify/work with
« Last Edit: September 05, 2021, 04:44:05 pm by Fluffe9911 »
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mightymushroom

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Re: (SG) Petty Kingdom of New Mahallo: Reign of King Arawn
« Reply #400 on: September 05, 2021, 04:54:53 pm »

It has to because of who the majority of the worshippers are then,
Yep:
Study the Dragon Gods: Dragons are extinct in Imperial Lands, and nearly extinguished from the world entirely, but their gods are still very much influential in the exotic lands south of the desert.
South of the desert is not the lands of humankind. Everything Imperials believe is filtered through a zealous pro-humanism, more than worrying about this or that particular nonhuman's merits.

I believe the three-eyed elf was not meant to be an actual elf, but a magically disguised undead. (Also not tolerated under Imperial laws.)

Quote
a long-term goal that can be a possibility is to make the Imperial religion more pluralist of different kinds of worship and utilizing Marion’s prophecy to put this in motion, and it seems a goal we should pursue since two of our sycophants are Dragon worshippers as well as our Spymaster.
I recall that being advanced as a factor in the general consensus to choose Marion, and likely a factor in the current vote to accept a Dragon priest's fealty as well as participating in Dragon rituals. :) We will be reformers or heretics, depending, and it will be interesting to see how much longer we can keep the crusader faction's favor while doing all this heretical stuff.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2021, 04:58:34 pm by mightymushroom »
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IronyOwl

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Re: (SG) Petty Kingdom of New Mahallo: Reign of King Arawn
« Reply #401 on: September 05, 2021, 05:16:29 pm »

Nah I'm a bit irritated and malding over the fact that elves are treated as below second class citizens, a possibility was to see if the moon elves were open to diplomacy before we went to go on and just raid them instead of a tournament or feast, now I'm sure any peaceful interaction between us and them is impossible.
Not necessarily, but if so it was true a long time before we were born. Remember, the Mahallo said the elves are really, really slow to adapt to new circumstances, so if we can't be diplomatic with them it'll be for very, very old reasons.

That said, the humans probably get more out of raiding them than they would out of peace, so we likely have no motive to do so.

I mean I would want to know why Imperials and the Mahello raiders see the Elfs as pure heretical existing beings that exist against the dogma just for breathing?, like what have they done that has made them trigger their ire, from the Mahello side it seem that the Elves were in these lands first because of their extended lifespans and it seems like their haughtiness is what pissed off the Mahello people, or the Mahello people just wanted a claim of land and that mean that a conflict between them was always going to happen?, the reason I'm saying all of this, is there any reason based on morality on why the Moon Elves are considered evil except the fact that we are on a Dwarf Fortress forum?
Mahallo reasons for hating the elves likely include:

1. The elves have stuff

That might not be all, but that's definitely enough. The Mahallo are bloodthirsty raiders who kill people and take their stuff. Prior to their homeland exploding, they were famed for their ability and tendency to do that to literally everyone. They don't need some kind of deep philosophical underpinning to routinely kill the elves and take their stuff.

We saw a bunch of tolerated elves in the nameless city with their three eyes, so they seem capable of being civil and aren’t like cannibals. I imagine there has to be some underlying reason why Elves are considered vile for differing groups of people to consider them heretical to existence
That was a single named example who was probably an illusion and tried to get us to torture Andre to death. We don't know anything about how civil or diplomatic (or cannibalistic) they are as a faction/civilization, other than the aforementioned Mahallo wisdom that they do everything at a glacial pace.

We also have (potentially suspect) information that 1/8th elf blood, raised under full human culture, is the absolute limit for being a functional member of human society. This would imply that elves are severely alien beings who do not play nicely with humans even under ideal circumstances.


Quote
a long-term goal that can be a possibility is to make the Imperial religion more pluralist of different kinds of worship and utilizing Marion’s prophecy to put this in motion, and it seems a goal we should pursue since two of our sycophants are Dragon worshippers as well as our Spymaster.
I recall that being advanced as a factor in the general consensus to choose Marion, and likely a factor in the current vote to accept a Dragon priest's fealty as well as participating in Dragon rituals. :) We will be reformers or heretics, depending, and it will be interesting to see how much longer we can keep the crusader faction's favor while doing all this heretical stuff.
I am in favor of trying to massage things away from standard Imperial doctrine, but would like to reiterate that pissing off the clergy is a Big Deal. This isn't about some nerd in a robe, it's the fundamental belief system and major political power across most of the known world.

That said, the fact that most of the known world just told the combined might of the faithful to fuck right off might help with that. Our brothers are likely none too pleased with things as they stand, so the lot of us together could potentially work towards some kind of major (if unpopular) reforms.
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Powder Miner

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Re: (SG) Petty Kingdom of New Mahallo: Reign of King Arawn
« Reply #402 on: September 05, 2021, 09:11:49 pm »

I’m pretty damn certain that the Volcanique-Imperial kingdom is only a fraction of Imperial human lands, considering the emphasis on the mass of foreign crusaders that composed an entire fuckoff army that outnumbered the entire combined league (if with some internal supporting lords), and which sure as hell didn’t come from the Titanlands or New Mahallo, as well as the faraway Imperial academy we had the option to send Arawn to, which certainly itself implies a wider Imperial realm.

To that end our best bet isn’t strongarming the central church for reforms but probably instead relying on the provincialism of our podunk far-off kingdom to have some rather fucky religious affairs just under plain sight.
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Re: (SG) Petty Kingdom of New Mahallo: Reign of King Arawn
« Reply #403 on: September 06, 2021, 02:11:16 am »

I’m pretty damn certain that the Volcanique-Imperial kingdom is only a fraction of Imperial human lands,
In fact, this is a necessary corollary of the observed facts that there have been several generations since Agusta and each generation is required to divide its lands.

Also, I believe that the elves are impure and must be destroyed.
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IronyOwl

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Re: (SG) Petty Kingdom of New Mahallo: Reign of King Arawn
« Reply #404 on: September 06, 2021, 02:31:09 am »

I’m pretty damn certain that the Volcanique-Imperial kingdom is only a fraction of Imperial human lands,
In fact, this is a necessary corollary of the observed facts that there have been several generations since Agusta and each generation is required to divide its lands.
I hadn't thought of this and it's probably correct, but it's worth pointing out that you only need to destroy your lands if they're sufficiently large. As we have no idea what that size threshold is, it's possible there's only a realm shattering for great conquerors rather than each and every succession.

Also, I believe that the elves are impure and must be destroyed.
Ceterum autem censeo elvenem esse delendam?
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The kitchenette mold free, you move on to the pantry. it's nasty in there. The bacon is grazing on the lettuce. The ham is having an illicit affair with the prime rib, The potatoes see all, know all. A rat in boxer shorts smoking a foul smelling cigar is banging on a cabinet shouting about rent money.
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