Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[FallacyofUrist]

Look, it's not just that. Obviously you have to combine multiple factors to nail someone as scum.

It seems unlikely that you'd miss that, but I have to accept that it's possible, so it's just one factor. The smallest factor, really.

The bigger factors are the coins-based flavor attack elaborate scheme nonsense, ignoring Blu as a factor, and your excessive use of meta evidence.

You're saying that because Caz doesn't play like you do, that because they're taking a more passive town style, that they're scum. You moved on from the coins thing as soon as it looked like it wasn't going to help you.

[Caz]

Fucking unbelievable. That sentence alone makes me want to quit this game. It's such an impossible attack to counter. I have to never make mistakes. Wonderful. I kinda don't want to even try now. That means if I ever make a mistake, it's literally easier to just straight up quit the game than it is to continue. No matter what happens, any mistake at all in roles that I don't have, and very little presented...

...

Why even try at this point? I've made one mistake as opposed to Caz's multiple. That's all there is to it, huh? I've never had my enthusiasm to try and fix a mistake be thoroughly shot to death.

Hey, take it as a compliment that people expect you to be competent. I don't think I have the same bar to hurdle on that one.

And you are being overdramatic

[Caz]

Blu blu where are you?

[webadict]

And you are being overdramatic

I can be anything I want to be.

I can be wrong. I can be dumb. I can be blind. Sometimes, I can even be Town.

The one thing I know for sure is that you are scum though. In reality, you would make a terrible leader. You would rely on others to make the difficult decisions because it would make you look bad. I would literally cut off a limb to win this game.

Blu blu where are you?

What question do you imagine you're going to ask BluarianKnight? If you believe them to be my ally (which, again, is physically impossible because I'm not scum), then you have nothing to gain. If you believe they could possibly not be my ally, then you already believe that my ally is voting for you, no? But that wouldn't make a whole lot of sense unless you are scum, which you are, so it does make sense.

Obviously, I have a big disadvantage in that no matter what people read me, they will always be questioning themselves. Which is why they should be reading Caz. It's bizarre to me that this is even a contest on what is easier to do, and why I'm SPECIFICALLY bringing up evidence that shows Caz is not following their Town meta.

Hey, take it as a compliment that people expect you to be competent. I don't think I have the same bar to hurdle on that one.

... I think the really unfortunate part here is that if I did yell at you, it would be completely called for. Because you would deserve it for this comment.

It says that you are okay with not trying. It says that you are okay with not being held in high regards. It says everything about why you are scum.

You don't want to be held to my standard because you would lose that contest. You want to hide. You are afraid to fight me.

It says so much about you, and the worst part is one of FoU and NQT just doesn't care because they know I'm Town as much as you do. I have no idea what BK sees in me, but they are currently the only person voting correctly.

Look, it's not just that. Obviously you have to combine multiple factors to nail someone as scum.

It seems unlikely that you'd miss that, but I have to accept that it's possible, so it's just one factor. The smallest factor, really.

The bigger factors are the coins-based flavor attack elaborate scheme nonsense, ignoring Blu as a factor, and your excessive use of meta evidence.

You're saying that because Caz doesn't play like you do, that because they're taking a more passive town style, that they're scum. You moved on from the coins thing as soon as it looked like it wasn't going to help you.

...

- Please vote in a manner that is viewable with my poor eyesight. If I can't see your vote, I might skip it. I can't trust LurkerTracker to do my vote counts for me, but I'll at least check it for semi-accuracy. Bold and Red makes it really easy to see, so do that please.

For the eye thing. It happens. I miss really simple things because I'm not god. That's why I missed an easy-to-read action in BYOR 15. Complex mistakes are made from simple ones. It's literally that easy.

I moved on the coins thing immediately because it got the exact result I wanted. Caz said that the coins weren't a thing. There's no way they'd know that as Town. It's legitimately that simple. I don't know if you know this, but it's a quick game, and it ends quickly.

I am also still sure that NQT is the ally because they would actually be the most aware of my townmeta, and they've done the least to show I'm scum. They'd also be doing a lot more to find out that Caz is scum or Town. Or even me.

[Caz]

The one thing I know for sure is that you are scum though. In reality, you would make a terrible leader. You would rely on others to make the difficult decisions because it would make you look bad. I would literally cut off a limb to win this game.

...Leg or arm?

What question do you imagine you're going to ask BluarianKnight? If you believe them to be my ally (which, again, is physically impossible because I'm not scum), then you have nothing to gain. If you believe they could possibly not be my ally, then you already believe that my ally is voting for you, no? But that wouldn't make a whole lot of sense unless you are scum, which you are, so it does make sense.

Pretty sure I've already said that I want their input. It's starting to annoy me how much they lurk their way through games. Same reason we lost the Caves of Dashar game. I know this setup is a bit different to the standard town v mafia but there is still the possibility of them being the traitor-ally. It's important for FoU and NQT to see that and use their interactions to figure out their identity. You seem like you just don't care if Blu is even in the game because they are already voting for you, so it doesn't matter.

...Unless you're convinced that by posting some more they might change their mind? Which would make NQT the traitor-ally (something I thought near the start of the game, btw)

Obviously, I have a big disadvantage in that no matter what people read me, they will always be questioning themselves. Which is why they should be reading Caz.

So you don't want people to read you because you look questionable and therefore scummy. Isn't the simplest answer that people who look scummy ARE scum? You want to draw attention away from yourself because you know that you made up that coin story and it backfired, making you look even worse.

... I think the really unfortunate part here is that if I did yell at you, it would be completely called for. Because you would deserve it for this comment.

It says that you are okay with not trying. It says that you are okay with not being held in high regards. It says everything about why you are scum.

You don't want to be held to my standard because you would lose that contest. You want to hide. You are afraid to fight me.

Well, this whole paragraph is just crap. How does what I said relate in ANY WAY to what you're accusing me of?

I am also still sure that NQT is the ally because they would actually be the most aware of my townmeta, and they've done the least to show I'm scum. They'd also be doing a lot more to find out that Caz is scum or Town. Or even me.

At least we agree on something.

[webadict]

I'm glad you started trying to be light-hearted after I pointed out how you weren't before. What do you think that means about me?

I feel like you're missing the point of why I pointed out NQT. I feel like you as Town is easily misunderstood as scum. I know for a fact that NQT does better analysis, and they're far more inquisitive about my alignment specifically because they have trouble reading me. From that, it would make sense to read you instead, since you're much more readable than I am.

They have yet to point out why you're Town. They are instead using why I am scum for why you are Town. This is a known fact of NQT:

webadict - I think definitely town on D1; slight drop off in post frequency on D2 could mean converted; thread engagement pretty solid; high suspicions count, townish paranoia. Very likely town.

This is from Super10, when they misread me as Town for the whole game. That should show to them that Caz is instead a better target to read instead. The unfortunate part about this post is that they also misread Caz, but Caz is not an inconsistent read on their part. It simply fluctuated throughout the game. They believe that high thread engagement would be indicative of Towniness, and I've engaged far more than literally anyone else. This should be giving them some pause, because it's NAI at best. But, they don't. They've decided to stick themselves on me scheming, which is fairly lazy on their part.

Web is trying some convoluted play perhaps to convince me specifically who likes that sort of thing. But the motivation is just completely off. I don't see how the coin ploy makes any sense from a town view.

My vote is Caz. My guess is Blu is the traitor. Their initial post was super unconvincing.

This is their only justification, and they will unlikely bring more until being pointed out. The reason why I point it out is specifically to show FoU and Blu that this is the lazy levels of scum and how they plan to decide their votes.

That's what you get from Ellif. You get lazy shoddy work.

Obviously, I have a big disadvantage in that no matter what people read me, they will always be questioning themselves. Which is why they should be reading Caz.

So you don't want people to read you because you look questionable and therefore scummy. Isn't the simplest answer that people who look scummy ARE scum? You want to draw attention away from yourself because you know that you made up that coin story and it backfired, making you look even worse.

Ah, I'm glad you said this! Let me quote your very own words for you, Caz.

Most of the time webadict is town pretending to be mafia pretending to be town pretending to be mafia pretending to be sk pretending to be...

Spoiler: ... (click to show/hide)

BOO.

so it's a bit hard to figure out.

Weird how you're saying that I'm hard to read here. I'd say that'd be evidence that you should be AGREEING. If you're Town, then them reading you should literally be a no-brainer. You're an easy read! webadict? That guy is an enigma and possibly a Soviet-era robot developed to handle nuclear warhead launches.

Oh my god, I'm WOTing again.

[webadict]

The fun part about arguing with someone with a good memory is when they use your words against you.

Isn't the simplest answer that people who look scummy ARE scum?

You know that this isn't true.

I can think of two instances where your behavior runs completely counter to this. Would you like me to quote them?

I believe one is in Paranormal 26.
I believe the second is in Mostly Vanilla Mafia 2.

MVM2 is the stronger evidence, but P26 has some key elements to it.

[FallacyofUrist]

Well, we can't just only focus on the candidates.

I should use my own knowledge.

Since I know that I'm town - and funnily enough, both the candidates seem to agree on that too, for whatever reason...

I know that one of NQT and Blu must be the traitor-ally. NQT is voting Caz. Blu is voting webadict. The key factor, then, is that the traitor-ally will vote who they think the traitor is. Therefore, to try and figure out who the traitor-ally is, we should look at the voters' vote justifications.

Notably, though, Blu has posted a total of... twice, in this game. I'd call it lurking, but there was a similar pattern in Caves of Dashar and they were town in that game, so more likely that there's IRL stuff involved. Which makes them pretty hard to read.

I'll choose to judge that NQT is not the traitor-ally based on their engagement level, but admittedly it's flimsy. So let's see if I can solidify this.

NQT: What makes you think that Caz is still the best pick? What would make you switch to voting webadict?

[webadict]

Since I know that I'm town - and funnily enough, both the candidates seem to agree on that too, for whatever reason...

That is an incorrect assessment. I do not think you are Town. You think I think you're Town because I think NQT is the ally. That is incorrect. I believe that you are far less likely to be Town than Blu. You are neutral at best specifically because you said there was no way I could make a mistake.

@FoU: Perhaps you can play a thought experiment on why I think BluarianKnight is Town. Obviously, you know me better than I know myself, since you know for a fact I can't make simple mistakes. So, would you like to explain to everyone why I think BluarianKnight is Town? What main contribution makes you think that NQT is not the ally?

The fact that you're using engagement level to prove NQT is not ally is funny. Why do you think engagement level makes them not the ally? Which game specifically? What about their meta proves that? Please be specific. I see generic phrases here because you... people... have no concept of what makes proof.

Saying something over and over again is not proof. Back up your statements or get the fuck out of the kitchen.

[BluarianKnight]

Sorry, had a holiday predicament. I'll read up and lay my thoughts.

[notquitethere]

This was just unhinged, bizarro-world reasoning:

As the nominee for my party, I am given security briefings. One such briefing informed me that Caz, the nominee of [NO PARTY NAME GIVEN], is serving our sworn enemy Ellif. Ellif grants their nobility symbolic coins, one of which was found with Caz's dirty fingerprints on it. notquitethere must also have been given one of these coins. notquitethere often breadcrumbs in their opening post as scum, and combining with their wanton attitude this game, it is very likely that notquitethere is therefore the undercover party for Caz, to surrender us to Ellif. Note that notquitethere specifically states that they used a die instead of a real coin to obfuscate their allegiance.

It is very likely that notquitethere will be steadily pushing for Caz, and I believe this will be readily apparent as the game goes on. Of course, I do believe that Caz may attempt to use this to distance themselves from notquitethere.

Therefore, BluarianKnight and FallacyofUrist are the Town voters.

No way is Web town. Therefore, has to be Caz. Blu is backing Web.  QED Blu is the traitor voter. I don't think there's anything more to say!

[BluarianKnight]

This was just unhinged, bizarro-world reasoning:

As the nominee for my party, I am given security briefings. One such briefing informed me that Caz, the nominee of [NO PARTY NAME GIVEN], is serving our sworn enemy Ellif. Ellif grants their nobility symbolic coins, one of which was found with Caz's dirty fingerprints on it. notquitethere must also have been given one of these coins. notquitethere often breadcrumbs in their opening post as scum, and combining with their wanton attitude this game, it is very likely that notquitethere is therefore the undercover party for Caz, to surrender us to Ellif. Note that notquitethere specifically states that they used a die instead of a real coin to obfuscate their allegiance.

It is very likely that notquitethere will be steadily pushing for Caz, and I believe this will be readily apparent as the game goes on. Of course, I do believe that Caz may attempt to use this to distance themselves from notquitethere.

Therefore, BluarianKnight and FallacyofUrist are the Town voters.

No way is Web town. Therefore, has to be Caz. Blu is backing Web.  QED Blu is the traitor voter. I don't think there's anything more to say!

Honestly, I can't see how you see Caz as the 'pure town of justice' vote.

While I agree that the coin thing is.. dumb - it doesn't scream scum to me. The setup is a 5 man, 3 voter 2 coin setup. Everyone's been going off an idea that the scum know each other, but that isn't correct.

However, there is an ally of the traitor among the 3 voters, though they don't know who the traitor is.

So, this implies that the Traitor needs to reach out to the Voter somehow. Web, for what it seems, hasnt attempted to do this to anyone singular.

You and Caz did that right at the start.

My own answer: I have no information yet whatsoever about the candidates, but flipping a coin gives me Caz.

The luckyowl option. Not the strategy I would pick, but at least you flipped correctly.

In this game, it seems once you tell the Traitor-Ally who you are, all you need to do is play town. This is why I'm leaning Web still, even with him doing a really stupid play.

Because based on the evidence, Web just fucking shot himself in the foot - but hasn't proven any scumtells or lean-ins. He doesn't want to manipulate the crowd, and provides arguments based on his opinions.

Caz? Caz just says 'this is wrong', and lets NQT do a lot of arguing for him to save face. Which seems scum to me.

So, let's make this one easy for you Fallacy...
A: If Caz was Town and it was mentioned in their role PM: Caz wouldn't have argued the coins don't exist.
B: If Caz was Town and it wasn't mentioned in their role PM: Caz wouldn't have argued that the coins don't exist.
C: If Caz was Scum and it was mentioned in their role PM: Caz wouldn't have argued the coins don't exist.
D: If Caz was Scum and it wasn't mentioned in their role PM: Caz would argue the coins don't exist.

A doesn't matter at this point.
B would have argued that I'm lying about having a coin with Caz's fingerprints on it. This Caz has no idea what Ellif is like, BECAUSE I HAVE THE TOWN PM AND IT LITERALLY ONLY SAYS THAT ELLIF IS BACKING THE OTHER CANDIDATE. If Caz had brought that up, I'd question the authenticity of such a coin, NOT whether those coins are a real thing or not.
C would have literally implicated NQT as the ally. This would have been a perfect outcome for me as well because Caz would be fighting against someone who revealed information that they didn't.
D would have known for a fact that Ellif doesn't have coins and that no coin with Caz's fingerprints exist.

This is NQT level. The coins don't exist because you are lying about having secret information because you AREN'T THAT ROLE.

As stated above, I think the coins was a bad play - but this to me the difference. Web was willing to risk because he's trying to find scum - Caz is scum, and all he needs to do is punish the scumhunting to succeed. He doesn't try to fight back with evidence, just saying that Web is wrong. And NQT does all the hard work.

Let's return to the first post I quoted - it was reply to FoU to try to gain info;

This was just unhinged, bizarro-world reasoning:

As the nominee for my party, I am given security briefings. One such briefing informed me that Caz, the nominee of [NO PARTY NAME GIVEN], is serving our sworn enemy Ellif. Ellif grants their nobility symbolic coins, one of which was found with Caz's dirty fingerprints on it. notquitethere must also have been given one of these coins. notquitethere often breadcrumbs in their opening post as scum, and combining with their wanton attitude this game, it is very likely that notquitethere is therefore the undercover party for Caz, to surrender us to Ellif. Note that notquitethere specifically states that they used a die instead of a real coin to obfuscate their allegiance.

It is very likely that notquitethere will be steadily pushing for Caz, and I believe this will be readily apparent as the game goes on. Of course, I do believe that Caz may attempt to use this to distance themselves from notquitethere.

Therefore, BluarianKnight and FallacyofUrist are the Town voters.

No way is Web town. Therefore, has to be Caz. Blu is backing Web.  QED Blu is the traitor voter. I don't think there's anything more to say!

Using this frame of evidence is poor choice - because one person is OBVIOUSLY scum, the other person is 100% safe, without any evidence?

Fuck that. That's the line of reasoning that won me Magical Mafia as scum. Either provide evidence with reasoning on why Caz is a better candidate - WITHOUT just relying on 'other person mafia lol', or show yourself as the ally.

I'm holding my vote to Web, FoU, to try to keep some balance - as stated, I think he's made a bad play, but his reasoning is sound, and he's provided reasoning for his claims. Caz.. has been reactive, and his only main supporter has been single-mindedly assaulting his other candidate, while all he does is sit back and simply state 'no, this is bad.', while NQT only says 'web bad vote caz'.

[webadict]

This was just unhinged, bizarro-world reasoning:

As the nominee for my party, I am given security briefings. One such briefing informed me that Caz, the nominee of [NO PARTY NAME GIVEN], is serving our sworn enemy Ellif. Ellif grants their nobility symbolic coins, one of which was found with Caz's dirty fingerprints on it. notquitethere must also have been given one of these coins. notquitethere often breadcrumbs in their opening post as scum, and combining with their wanton attitude this game, it is very likely that notquitethere is therefore the undercover party for Caz, to surrender us to Ellif. Note that notquitethere specifically states that they used a die instead of a real coin to obfuscate their allegiance.

It is very likely that notquitethere will be steadily pushing for Caz, and I believe this will be readily apparent as the game goes on. Of course, I do believe that Caz may attempt to use this to distance themselves from notquitethere.

Therefore, BluarianKnight and FallacyofUrist are the Town voters.

No way is Web town. Therefore, has to be Caz. Blu is backing Web.  QED Blu is the traitor voter. I don't think there's anything more to say!

And this is significanrly more proof that NQT is specifically ignoring Caz's towntells for their own benefit.

Also, NQT, wanna tell us that BK is scum based on their post there?

The coins thing is the only thing you've got, and you know for a fact it's not only within my townmeta, it IS my townmeta. Which game have I hard gambited openly as scum? I do this stuff all the time as Town.

@BK: I actually thought that one scum knew the other at the beginning, and it was my feeling it was NQT because of the way the initially voted. It was contrived. I also thought so because I was under the impression that Ally knew their partner and they were signalling Caz. Hence, the coin thing was done specifically to tie them together.

Combine that with dumbtelling on NQT (which if we're using this on me, then we're well within bounds ro use it on NQT), this points significantly to NQT as the ally.

[TricMagic]

28 Hours until voting is closed.

[webadict]

It is unlikely that NQT will bring forth real evidence because they have none.

It is unlikely that Caz will either.

@NQT: Respond to this, since Caz never will. Show FoU why you're so invested in Caz:

Obviously, I have a big disadvantage in that no matter what people read me, they will always be questioning themselves. Which is why they should be reading Caz.

So you don't want people to read you because you look questionable and therefore scummy. Isn't the simplest answer that people who look scummy ARE scum? You want to draw attention away from yourself because you know that you made up that coin story and it backfired, making you look even worse.

Ah, I'm glad you said this! Let me quote your very own words for you, Caz.

Most of the time webadict is town pretending to be mafia pretending to be town pretending to be mafia pretending to be sk pretending to be...

Spoiler: ... (click to show/hide)

BOO.

so it's a bit hard to figure out.

Weird how you're saying that I'm hard to read here. I'd say that'd be evidence that you should be AGREEING. If you're Town, then them reading you should literally be a no-brainer. You're an easy read! webadict? That guy is an enigma and possibly a Soviet-era robot developed to handle nuclear warhead launches.

Oh my god, I'm WOTing again.