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Author Topic: Refit and Repair 2. Veenland, Spring, 1896, Revision&Refit Phase.  (Read 18462 times)

Aseaheru

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Re: Refit and Repair 2. Veenland, 2nd Pregame Design Phase.
« Reply #60 on: February 25, 2021, 02:16:51 pm »

Quote from: Zeeslang Torpedo
This 18" diameter, 17' long torpedo is designed for a range of 2000 yards and a speed of some 34 knots. Design weight is about 1200 pounds, with a 200lb TNT warhead. Propulsion is via two contra-rotated propellers powered by a compressed-air driven turbine.
Part of the design work on this torpedo is also designing a series of reliable torpedo mounts, focusing on two-tube arrangements.
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NUKE9.13

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Re: Refit and Repair 2. Veenland, 2nd Pregame Design Phase.
« Reply #61 on: February 26, 2021, 05:51:58 am »

Quote
Revision: School Financing:
Turns out a large academy costs a lot to maintain, who knew? It is not viable for the navy to bear the costs of running the Veense Nationale School van de Marine (VNSM) alone, so alternate sources will need to be roped in.

First, the Education Union. It's an educational institute- students studying here are not taking up space in other educational institutions. It is well known that Veenland has the greatest education system in the world (at least according to the Education Union), which is in part thanks to the generous funding it receives. They can surely aid us in our quest to provide high-quality education- even if that means giving Education Union leadership some say in the VNSM's operations.

Second, the Army. It was perhaps over-ambitious to include a marine training course in the academy- and unnecessary. If we can get the army to do basic training of marines, with the VNSM only teaching them the stuff specific to navy operations (boarding actions, amphibious landings, whatever), that would allow us to cut most of that department. We can sweeten the deal for the army by offering to train their medics in the medical part of the academy (a medic's duty on a boat or in the field is pretty similar). 

A third, more radical proposal, is that the VNSM accept foreign students... and foreign tuition payments, appropriately scaled to the quality of education received (quite high, in other words). The VNSM may well be one of the best places to learn to work in a navy in the world, and certainly in the Pacific. Students seeking top-notch naval education will surely be eager to attend.
Now, there is one major problem with this idea. Those foreign students would be studying our naval technology- and at present, the VNSM has access to cutting-edge machinery and techniques, stuff we don't exactly want to share, at least not freely. There are three ways we will mitigate this issue.
The first, simply, restricts access to classified technology only to local students in the final part of their training, with the majority of classes using less cutting-edge technology to practice with (still modern, just excluding anything that is still secret). This will slightly reduce the quality of education, but it should still stand head and shoulders above the norm.
The second is to have requirements for foreign students. For one, they must not be from hostile nations- friendly, or at least neutral nations only. For another, they must be vetted by our own intelligence operatives- we know a thing or two about spying, so we should be able to weed out anyone with ignoble intentions.
The third is to subtly influence foreign students to sympathise with Veense interests. In addition to their regular classes, foreign students will receive basic education in Veense culture and politics (to 'help them feel comfortable studying abroad'). Not an excessive amount- one or two classes a week, sort of thing. On top of this, foreign students will be treated well, and care will be taken that local students are amicable towards them. By the end of their education, foreign students should have a good opinion of Veenland.

Benefits to the foreign student proposal include an improvement of our international image (look, we are willing to share our education with the world, and see how students returning home are impressed by our fine culture and friendly nature), and even an improvement in the quality of education- as we attract the best students from abroad, who will share insights and experience with their fellow students. Admittedly, the improvement in quality will probably at best equal the decline due to reduced access to classified technology.
And, of course, foreign money will put a significant dent in the cost of maintaining the institution. Heck, if it proves popular enough, it could even turn a profit, like prestigious universities! I mean, realistically that won't happen, but we can dream.
A shortage of space for local students should not be a concern- the VNSM is a big institution, and Veenland is not an especially large country, so there should be enough space for a few extra foreign students (if there are too many applicants, we will have to restrict the number of foreign students who can attend).

Note: Tuition is paid by foreign students only, and said tuition is paid for the benefit of all workers in Veenland. It is only because the rest of the world is mired in outdated capitalism that we are forced to play by their rules when it comes to sharing our gifts, and have need of foreign currency to operate in the global market. This proposal will of course have to be approved of by the appropriate national councils.

Quote
Revision: Draadkruit Production Modernisation:
So our ammunition producers are complaining of outdated equipment, with the result that production is both more time-consuming and less reliable? Sounds like a good time to modernise their equipment, then. Really should've done so before now, but it was worth a shot to see whether the old equipment could be re-used.
With their equipment brought up to date, they should be able to churn out a good quality product at industrial speed (with priority placed on quality).

So, yes, we need a torpedo. We also need to fix the Draadkruit. Better guns and better fire control would be nice, but we only have so many dice. Fixing the insane cost of the school would also be nice, but we could just deactivate it and revise it post game-start (although that would mean our starting fleet wouldn't benefit from it).
For guns, I was actually thinking that a revision might suffice- just to let them properly benefit from the Draadkruit (once it is functional). I know it isn't ideal, I'm sure there's all sorts of cool things we could do to make better guns, but action economy demands sacrifices.

E: After some discussion, I've come around to supporting the idea of doing only one revision, two ships, and three designs with our last 18 dice. Or at least I'm considering it. In which case the three designs I'd support would be torpedo, guns, fire control. For the two ships, I'd support small ship and big ship (eg destroyer and 7kt bruiser-cruiser). The revision: the school, actually. Fixing the powder can be done in the turn 1 revision phase, but fixing the insane cost of the school would let us build more ships at the start of the game (if I understand correctly).
That being said, this is contingent on there being a regular design and revision before the first combat- we can't be sending out ships with unreliable shells.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2021, 01:07:59 pm by NUKE9.13 »
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Khang36

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Re: Refit and Repair 2. Veenland, 2nd Pregame Design Phase.
« Reply #62 on: February 27, 2021, 03:43:51 pm »

Quote from: vote
Design
Zeeslang Torpedo(1):Khang
Central Rangefinding Station (0):

Revision
School Financing(1): Khang

dice
1 Design+1 revision

Edit: reposting my small guns design.


Quote from: The Light Gun Modernization Project
The Light Gun Modernization Project, is a program with the intended goal of creating a new set of light naval guns (6 inches and smaller) meet the navy's increasing need for better guns.

The guns are to be designed to handle the new Draadkruit powder propellants at 1.5 times the expected maximum load to ensure safe margin. Unlike the previous generation of light naval guns these new ones have replaced the old BL screw blocks with QF sliding wedge breach blocks, the gun barrel will be of a new build type which will be called "radially expanded", unlike other build types which used hoops or wire to reinforce the barrel it used a technique called autofrettage to strengthen the barrel itself to be able to handle the high pressures experienced in the gun chamber. This results in a single piece barrel that is as light as wire wound while being cheaper and fast to make. Instead of having the rifling be engraved directly onto the interior of the barrel it self an internal liner with the rifling is placed inside which can be replaced when the rifling is worn out greatly extending the service life of the barrels. With the anticipated increase in power from the new Draadkruit powder and thus recoil, all gun will have hydraulic recoil pistons to cushion the recoil ensuring that the gun mount do not get shaken apart from repeated firing.


2 inch:
QF 2"/40 M1895
3 inch:
QF 3"/40 M1895
4 inch:
QF 4"/45 M1895
5 inch:
QF 5"/45 M1895
6 inch:
QF 6"/45 M1895
« Last Edit: February 28, 2021, 12:32:54 pm by Khang36 »
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NUKE9.13

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Re: Refit and Repair 2. Veenland, 2nd Pregame Design Phase.
« Reply #63 on: February 28, 2021, 03:48:52 pm »

Righto.

Quote from: vote
Design
Zeeslang Torpedo: (2) Khang, NUKE9.13
Central Rangefinding Station: (0)
The Light Gun Modernization Project: (1) NUKE9.13

Revision
School Financing: (1) Khang

Dice
4: (1) Khamg
6: (1) NUKE9.13
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ConscriptFive

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Re: Refit and Repair 2. Veenland, 2nd Pregame Design Phase.
« Reply #64 on: February 28, 2021, 05:15:18 pm »

We don't need to fix the school until the end of pregame...
Quote from: vote
Design
Zeeslang Torpedo: (3) Khang, NUKE9.13, ConscriptFive
Central Rangefinding Station: (0)
The Light Gun Modernization Project: (2) NUKE9.13, ConscriptFive

Revision
School Financing: (1) Khang

Dice
4: (1) Khamg
6: (2) NUKE9.13, ConscriptFive

Aseaheru

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Re: Refit and Repair 2. Veenland, 2nd Pregame Design Phase.
« Reply #65 on: February 28, 2021, 06:23:31 pm »

 Yall seem to have forgotten propellant work.

Quote from: Draadkruit Mk2
The second set of specifications seeks to improve our smokeless propellants by improving quality control and standardizing input materials. It also works on improving production methods, with the aim of streamlining production and improving quality of said production.

Quote from: vote
Design
Zeeslang Torpedo: (4) Khang, NUKE9.13, ConscriptFive, AseaHeru
Central Rangefinding Station: (0)
The Light Gun Modernization Project: (3) NUKE9.13, ConscriptFive, AseaHeru

Revision
School Financing: (1) Khang

Dice
4: (1) Khamg
6: (3) NUKE9.13, ConscriptFive, AseaHeru
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Vostok

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Re: Refit and Repair 2. Veenland, 2nd Pregame Design Phase.
« Reply #66 on: February 28, 2021, 11:26:54 pm »

Quote from: vote
Design
Zeeslang Torpedo: (5) Khang, NUKE9.13, ConscriptFive, AseaHeru, Vostok
Central Rangefinding Station: (0)
The Light Gun Modernization Project: (4) NUKE9.13, ConscriptFive, AseaHeru, Vostok

Revision
School Financing: (1) Khang

Dice
4: (1) Khamg
6: (3) NUKE9.13, ConscriptFive, AseaHeru
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NUKE9.13

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Re: Refit and Repair 2. Veenland, 2nd Pregame Design Phase.
« Reply #67 on: March 01, 2021, 03:19:38 am »

Yall seem to have forgotten propellant work.
Not forgotten. Unless you're suggesting that we tack a Draadkruit revision on to the gun design, which seems... possible, but dubious, the idea is to do the Draadkruit fix in the T1 revision phase- we'd still be supplying our ships with reliable shells before they sail out for the first combat. Now, this does of course risk rolling a 1 on the revision, but that's always a risk. Doing things this way gets us maximum mileage out of our pre-game turns.
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Aseaheru

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Re: Refit and Repair 2. Veenland, 2nd Pregame Design Phase.
« Reply #68 on: March 01, 2021, 04:11:38 pm »

 There was serious discussion about doing it this turn, as a standalone thing. Hence why I shoved up a "eey, have a thing in the event yall just forgot to, yaknow, put it up yerselves"
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piratejoe

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Re: Refit and Repair 2. Veenland, 2nd Pregame Design Phase.
« Reply #69 on: March 04, 2021, 08:38:30 am »

Pregame Design Phase of Turn 2:
Quote from: Zeeslang Torpedo
This 18" diameter, 17' long torpedo is designed for a range of 2000 yards and a speed of some 34 knots. Design weight is about 1200 pounds, with a 200lb TNT warhead. Propulsion is via two contra-rotated propellers powered by a compressed-air driven turbine.
Part of the design work on this torpedo is also designing a series of reliable torpedo mounts, focusing on two-tube arrangements.
Effectiveness: 2 | Cost: 4 | Bugs: 3

The Zeeslang Torpedo is...Honestly not exactly what we wanted, but what we got. It's disappointing for us, as not only is it capable of only 28 knots, it has half the range of what we desired. Further, it has a noticeable dud rate, especially when at an angle that's not mostly flat, though luckily this isn't so bad as to be over a third of the time. If anything the main thing that actually works as intended is the launcher, which does everything it needs and more so. But even then, getting a duel surface launcher isn't something that we have managed to work due to weight and turning issues. But what we currently have went well at least...Unlike the torpedoes themselves...On the bright side, the constriction of the torpedoes are actually somewhat simple, and the materials needed not too expensive, meaning it's a bit cheaper than originally expected

Quote from: The Light Gun Modernization Project
The Light Gun Modernization Project, is a program with the intended goal of creating a new set of light naval guns (6 inches and smaller) meet the navy's increasing need for better guns.

The guns are to be designed to handle the new Draadkruit powder propellants at 1.5 times the expected maximum load to ensure safe margin. Unlike the previous generation of light naval guns these new ones have replaced the old BL screw blocks with QF sliding wedge breach blocks, the gun barrel will be of a new build type which will be called "radially expanded", unlike other build types which used hoops or wire to reinforce the barrel it used a technique called autofrettage to strengthen the barrel itself to be able to handle the high pressures experienced in the gun chamber. This results in a single piece barrel that is as light as wire wound while being cheaper and fast to make. Instead of having the rifling be engraved directly onto the interior of the barrel it self an internal liner with the rifling is placed inside which can be replaced when the rifling is worn out greatly extending the service life of the barrels. With the anticipated increase in power from the new Draadkruit powder and thus recoil, all gun will have hydraulic recoil pistons to cushion the recoil ensuring that the gun mount do not get shaken apart from repeated firing.
2 inch:
QF 2"/40 M1895
3 inch:
QF 3"/40 M1895
4 inch:
QF 4"/45 M1895
5 inch:
QF 5"/45 M1895
6 inch:
QF 6"/45 M1895
Effectiveness: 6 | Cost: 2 | Bugs: 4

The new light guns project has gone fairly well. While the naming is suspiciously similar to that of a certain other island nation, it is fully and completely our own work, and it works far better, and that has nothing to do with the fact this has come into being a number of years after. Regardless, the guns in question are long range, and fast firing. Really, it's more a matter of simply how fast the crew can load them rather than how fast the gun can actually sustain fire. Despite this, accuracy while good initially, tends to start to fall after firing enough for a proper bombardment or battle, requiring a replacement of the rifling, which is it's main and biggest issue and what causes the most cost for the things. There's also the issue of retooling of factories being slow and inefficient at the moment that seems to plague our efforts. But, at least despite that the guns are all quite good. The six inch version has a theoretical max range of 20k yards, though a much smaller effective range, though all share the same effective range more or less, and the theoretical max range per inch smaller is roughly reduced by only 1500 yards. Other than this, the guns have a seemingly sleek and long look that makes them distinct, though this doesn't effect preformance. 



It is now the Design Phase of Pre game Turn 3. You have 6 dice remaining to spend on Designs, ships, or simply Save for the next turn.

Spoiler: Projects (click to show/hide)

Spoiler: Technology (click to show/hide)

Spoiler: Ship Classes (click to show/hide)

Spoiler: Ships (click to show/hide)

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Aseaheru

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Re: Refit and Repair 2. Veenland, 3rd Pregame Design Phase.
« Reply #70 on: March 04, 2021, 10:31:36 am »

 Shame they went the way they did. Ahwell, The plans ship, save two, and then two ship, wasent it? Here come some ships for this turns festivities then.

Quote from: Flying Veenlander CDS design proposal 1(less guns, more tech)
The Flying Veenlander class of coastal defense ship is a slow, short range, heavily armored beast designed to give and take severe punishment. As she is to deal obsene amounts of damage to the for, her main armament is built around two twin-gun turrets mounting 10" guns, located fore and aft. These are trained and fired from one of two positions, each located under heavy armor, filled with the best rangetables and computing aids developed by our glorious computer's- and artificers- unions. Direct telephone lines link these positions together, aswell as to large rangefinding telescopes mounted high above the ship. Secondary turrets of 6" guns(three single-gun turrets per broadside and two single-gun turrets superfiring over the mains), 4" guns (four twin-gun in large, nearly enclosed, gunshields per broadside) and a smattering of 2" mounts round out her armaments. The Veenlander is designed to be armored in her vitals against her own guns at any range, including her 10" guns. Her secondaries are only protected against splinters, with the 2" mounts only being protected by gunshields. While the primary and secondary battery turrets are hydraulically actuated, the tertiary battery is traversed by means of electric motors.
Power is supplied by some 12 boilers feeding four steam engines providing 9250 horsepower across four shafts. Being a coastal defense ship, range is less than stellar, about enough to reach any of our major ports from any other of our major ports. The ship is designed with a double hull and significant compartmentalization to further improve chances of survival.

Note, "Computer" is "people who do computing", not a union already making mechanical, electro-mechanical, or electric computers. Although they may be doing that too.

Quote from: Flying Veenlander CDS design proposal 2(more guns!)
The Flying Veenlander class of coastal defense ship is a slow, short range, heavily armored beast designed to give and take severe punishment. As she is to deal obscene amounts of damage to the for, her main armament is built around two twin-gun turrets mounting 10" guns, located fore and aft. These are trained and fired from one of two positions, each located under heavy armor, filled with the best rangetables and computing aids developed by our glorious computer's- and artificers- unions. Direct telephone lines link these positions together, aswell as to large rangefinding telescopes mounted high above the ship. A secondary battery of 6" guns(five casemates of the casemated turret-type per broadside and two single-gun turrets superfiring over the mains), 4" guns (eight single-gun mounts per broadside in large, nearly enclosed, gunshields) and a smattering of 2" mounts round out her armaments. The Veenlander is designed to be armored in her vitals against her own guns at any range, including her 10" guns. Her secondaries are only protected against splinters, with the 2" mounts only being protected by gunshields. While the primary and secondary battery turrets are hydraulically actuated, the tertiary battery is traversed only by means of brute strength.
Power is supplied by some 12 boilers feeding four of our steam engines providing 9250 horsepower across four shafts. Being a coastal defense ship, range is less than stellar, about enough to reach any of our major ports from any other of our major ports. The ship is designed with a double hull and significant compartmentalization to further improve chances of survival.

Note, "Computer" is "people who do computing", not a union already making mechanical, electro-mechanical, or electric computers. Although they may be doing that too.
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NUKE9.13

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Re: Refit and Repair 2. Veenland, 3rd Pregame Design Phase.
« Reply #71 on: March 04, 2021, 01:12:52 pm »

I was planning on design (fire control?), save three, then two ships and school financing next turn. If we do go for three ships, we'd have to deactivate the school pre-start, which would be a bit of a shame.
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Khang36

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Re: Refit and Repair 2. Veenland, 3rd Pregame Design Phase.
« Reply #72 on: March 05, 2021, 09:00:15 pm »

Quote from: vote
Design
Central Range Finding Station(1):Khang

Revsion
School Financing(1): Khang

dice
4 dice(1):Khang
3 dice(0)
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NUKE9.13

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Re: Refit and Repair 2. Veenland, 3rd Pregame Design Phase.
« Reply #73 on: March 07, 2021, 04:06:39 pm »

I expanded on Khang's proposal.

Quote
Mikken Fire Control System
Jan Mikken, for which the Mikken Fire Control System is named, is a visionary in the field of naval gunnery. He added speaking tubes and telegraph wiring to his ship, allowing him to receive rangefinding information from the mast, calculate a firing solution, and then coordinate his ship's main guns so that they all fired at once. Now, admittedly, he was the captain of a fishing boat, so this wasn't super relevant, but we liked the idea anyway.

The MFCS uses coincidence rangefinders (mounted as high on a ship as possible), the operators of which transmit (by either electrical wiring (telegraph-esque) or speaking tubes, depending on the size and layout of the vessel) their data to the fire control hub. There, with the aid of a plotting chart, a maths wiz or two, and a mechanical calculator that handles some of the more time-consuming calculations (doing so much faster than a human), a firing solution is calculated (for the ship's main guns). Subsequently, the director (colloquially known as the 'Mikker') communicates the appropriate numbers to the commander of each gun simultaneously. The order to fire is also communicated simultaneously, ensuring that all guns (of a given calibre) fire at the same time. The collection of splashes thus generated can be observed by the rangefinders, and once again communicated to the hub- the cycle continues as needed.

Key innovations of the Mikken system:
-Centralised control hub, connected to both guns and observers
-Mechanical calculators handling some of the calculations
-A director giving the order to fire simultaneously

All in all, the Mikken system is expected to bolster accuracy on our ships by a significant amount.

Having seen the numbers on this page, I am utterly convinced that better fire control is crucial, because as seen in 1904-1905, better tech and training can lead to doubled, even quadrupled hit rates.

I am also voting to wait on the school revision. It's unlikely I'll change my mind on it, but there's no benefit to doing it earlier, so might as well keep our options open.

Quote from: vote
Design
Central Range Finding Station(1):Khang
Mikken Fire Control System (1): NUKE9.13

Revsion
School Financing(1): Khang

dice
4 dice(1):Khang
3 dice(1): NUKE9.13
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Aseaheru

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Re: Refit and Repair 2. Veenland, 3rd Pregame Design Phase.
« Reply #74 on: March 07, 2021, 04:08:38 pm »

Quote from: vote
Design
Central Range Finding Station(1):Khang
Mikken Fire Control System (2): NUKE9.13, AseaHeru

Revsion
School Financing(2): Khang, AseaHeru

dice
4 dice(2):Khang, AseaHeru
3 dice(1): NUKE9.13
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