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[Vector]

Vector:

I thought heydude had been copped scum. I misinterpreted LO's post when they talked about having "results."

Best guess on the scumteam based on NJW's frantically protecting people is now NJW, Leafsnail, and Heydude (in that order).

This means FoU did direct him onto NQT from Nirur Torir, making FoU directly responsible for a townkill, possibly at the expense of a mafiakill. And he's one of my scum gutreads, which I promised myself I'd go on, seeing as both mechanical and thread analysis is deeply compromised this game.

FallacyofUrist - for killing town.

NJW2000. It's LYLO. You've been down my throat all day for attacking Leafsnail over lurking (which you can see plainly from relative post count was not just on D1), when lurking is Leafsnail's #1 scumtell. Now you're claiming that someone being involved in redirecting a vig means that they're scum and voting on a gutread. Again, in LYLO.

You pushed strongly for a lynch on Toony for not sharing apparent daycop results immediately.

Earlier, you didn't really care who was lynched or not. You blamed it on the game being unfun to play. It's too bad if the game isn't fun, it really is, but you've been covering over your extreme passiveness by repeatedly saying that the game is too mechanically and analytically compromised to play.

This is nonsense. There is a wealth of data available from players' posts and we do have some night data. Ambiguity is normal in Mafia. Imperfect play is normal in Mafia. We try to find the scumteam anyway.


For example, here is some interesting data:

Okay if everybody is going to go insane, why not lynch the very likely third party in TricMagic?

I'm still down with this.

I'm also still down.

THEN HOP ON BOARD

What's with this 'I'm down' business but then you don't change your vote?

Here's Jim Groovestar trying to get a bandwagon on Tric instead of Leafsnail.

This is either a genius/*intelligence-slur* gambit by !scumNQT to push a lynch on Toony, or some truly awful scum play if both sides are scum.

If you both are town, then it’s too late for both of you. We don’t have any better suspects besides you two.

Here's heydude trying to chain lynches with NQT and Toony.

[TricMagic]

Quite ambiguous examples Vector. It might mean more if I trusted you. As is, time is running short, and my question of logic was mostly poking to see what came out of it.

[NJW2000]

You pushed strongly for a lynch on Toony for not sharing apparent daycop results immediately.

Read the thread. This really wasn't what Toony was lynched on. This wasn't what I was pushing him on. Where do I say that Toony is a daycop? Like, where?

We only found out he was sending the contracts after he died, if that's what you mean by "daycop".

This is nonsense. There is a wealth of data available from players' posts and we do have some night data. Ambiguity is normal in Mafia. Imperfect play is normal in Mafia. We try to find the scumteam anyway.

Yeah, here's the thing. The mechanical data we have is pretty much totally unreliable. We had an alignment cop completely sure that their investigations went through turning out wrong, a confirmed mod error and a probable one, a bastard mechanic present from the start of the first day, and people constantly correcting themselves about night actions. Besides, FoU is my best mechanical lynch, see here.

As for player's posts... I mean, so we're expected to make allowances for newer players playing erratically. We're expected to make allowances for people not having the time, or indeed the inclination, to participate. We're expected to make allowances for you literally not knowing what has happened in the game. I mean, fine, I'm happy to do that, I get that people have other constraints on their time, everyone has a life. In fact, failing to do so would probably just get us lynching town without info. But then I'm going to lean into gutreads, in order to avoid dumb policy or completely unreliable mechanical lynches, because they're the only thing left.


And yep, I have been attacking people that went after Leafsnail. I still maintain that they're a completely lazy lynch, often pursued by people without bothering to say anything beyond "lurking", while presenting stronger arguments that other people were scum. Like, you literally thought heydude and I had been confirmed as scum by LuckyOwl and still were with him on lynching Leafsnail first. Leafsnail may be scum, but if so, they've played a better town game than most.

[NJW2000]

Vector: what have you been doing during the day? Mechanically?

Oh, also: you answering this is probably better than me doing it, whatever alignment you are.

[Vector]

I went back and looked at NQT's analysis and the end of D1, because NQT is generally efficient at catching scum through vote analysis. In particular, I wanted to check how we ended up choosing not to lynch Leafsnail on D1, and examine who Jim pushed us to lynch towards the end of the day.

What stood out to me were the two posts that I quoted: first, that Jim pushed me and Toaster off of Leafsnail and towards Tric, building a counter-bandwagon. And second, that heydude says "it's too late for both of you if you're both town." This is completely nonsensical from a town perspective. There is literally no reason for someone who is town-aligned to say this.

Read the thread. This really wasn't what Toony was lynched on. This wasn't what I was pushing him on. Where do I say that Toony is a daycop? Like, where?

-

This is a bad reason to vote Toony. In an "All-Star Game," you should know that cops often get nailed as scum D1 because they're acting like they don't wanna die and have something to hide. Hiding an initial clear with the hope of hitting scum later is super-reasonable and normal.

Yes Sometimes Townies Should Lie.

I guess I'll think about this over the night. As it replicates almost exactly the deceptive contortions scum go through, I would assume it was terrible play, but hearing someone widely respected say otherwise is sobering.

I did read the thread, and I'm referring to this interaction, and more specifically to the post that you quote-snipped in this post.

Leafsnail may be scum, but if so, they've played a better town game than most.

OK, first, citation needed. I'm serious: you seem to think Leafsnail is solid town. I'm willing to consider that you're correct, but not on your word. Demonstrate for me and the others who want Leafsnail dead that Leafsnail has been doing a good job of hunting.

Vector: what have you been doing during the day? Mechanically?

Oh, also: you answering this is probably better than me doing it, whatever alignment you are.

No. I'm pretty sure you're scum and I'm not responding to role information requests unless someone who I'm pretty sure is town backs you up. To be specific: I'll consider it if there's a follow-up request from Lucky Owl and/or FallacyofUrist.

[NJW2000]

Toony was lynched for deceptiveness, not for withholding information, certainly not by me for withholding daycop results. Stop pushing false narratives.



Vector, as the FoU vote's gathering dust, and they read to me as scummy. Oh, and because they tried to lynch Leafsnail while believing heydude was confirmed scum if you need a mechanical reason. No excuses for that.



Also, Vector actioned LuckyOwl, trying to give them an ability which... charges, lets dead players vote on using my abilities, and if I'm Vector, lets them use one from a dead player instead. Want to keep that a secret? Can't see why.

I know because I switched with LuckyOwl today, and got the ability instead. Thanks!

[Nirur Torir]

Nirur Torir: Why did you made me unblockable? Was it because I was suspicious of you on day 2? When I called you a liar for saying you had no ability with rng element? Did you choose me to prove that you weren't lying?

Because you have an investigate and are the least likely to be scum.
Partially, but the ability I ended up giving you doesn't contradict the rng read to prove my honesty. The one I was thinking of sending tonight would, but I changed my mind, and now I'm thinking that we'd be better off if I traded no bonk badges tonight instead.
If I give one to Vector, we can trade no bonk badges and confirm that we each have one at the start of D4.
If Heydude flips scum, I can put one on FoU for my secondary. If unlynched, I'll put one on him. If he flips town, I can put one on Leafsnail or NJW.

Heydude6, you're my top lynch, for being the only killer, defending yourself with a lot of WIFOM, not responding to me picking apart your wine, and for your actions coinciding with FoUs to leave a good townie dead while having plausible deniability for both of you.

Spoiler: questions repost (click to show/hide)

Note: I failed with names originally. My quotes here have been edited here, NJW > NQT.

If Trick were scum, then if his hats were randomly distributed, the scum buddies that got hats would just immedietaly give Trick their hats to make him more powerful.
[....]
Scum-only hat distribution has already been disproven by evidence. Since there is no hat distribution model for !scumTric that doesn't lead to some sort of mechanical exploit, we can conclude !scumtrick is impossible.

How do you know he started with a hat, instead of a scum buddy?

Fallacy is saying that he thought a near-confirmed town was scum,

Where was NQT near-confirmed?

Fallacy is saying that he thought a near-confirmed town was scum, so he redirected the vigilante who a lot of people also saw as town into killing him. Do you realize how insane that is? Currently we are saying that !scum me decided to make himself look town by blatantly killing a confirmed town, then forcing another scumbuddy into contradicting his cover story, as well as claiming to have deliberately tried to make that confirmed town dead.

This is strong wine. "Some people think Mario is town, so Mario must be town. I can't kill the guy who I think is scum because of this disagreement."
If it was insane for him to want NQT dead, why aren't you trying to lynch him?

Those who say that I was the sole person attempting mafia nightkills are insane because why would the mafia cut their killing power in half? What gambit reward is worth doing that for?

I have your word that it's a gun item and not a mafia kill, and FoU saying you have guns. I do not know that you're on opposing teams. I also know this is a BYOR with a bunch of powerful, crazy roles that might encourage you to make the kills, with your obvious calling card, and for other scum to use their other abilities. Why would it have to be a crazy gambit with the mafia only using half their kills?

Can you bring some better evidence? Do you have a list of scum tells? Can you recall some moments where I acted particlarly anti-town? Can you recall some arguments I made that were blatantly without merit? Can you refute the opinions of the confirmed town members who also thought I was a towney? Do you think I said little of value to the town in my time here? Cause if you're going to lynch me, you need to make a case. One confusing action is not enough.

I recognize that you're putting the most town and energy into the game, and applaud it. But you're also the only night killer, and spread a lot of WIFOM, saying "this must be true, because only a madman would do otherwise." Caring a lot about the game doesn't necessarily make you town.

The other gun that I used last night was a gun that fired a tracking dart that deals 1 Hp of damage (everyone has 3 HP) and tells me who my target visited that night. I was told that my target visited nobody

Who was it that visited nobody? This might be useful information.
Why did you track them?

[Vector]

Toony was lynched for deceptiveness, not for withholding information, certainly not by me for withholding daycop results. Stop pushing false narratives.

My vote is based on the scumhunting I did on Toony, eventually getting him to claim he aimed to deceive town as town.

This is incredibly misleading and you know that. Why would a cop claim a non-mafia result Day 1? Fuck off.

I mean, fair enough, a cop probably wouldn't. I was probably a little mixed up as to the usefulness of town confirmations and the mechanical play around daycops. Sorry about suggesting you should have claimed cop, that was wrong.

Nonetheless, you did say that you were attempting to give a reason that HeyDude was town that was different to your actual, private reason for believing he was town... this isn't something a townie should do! Especially not in an all-stars game like this one. I'm sorry if it was a poorly thought out town play that gets you lynched, but the fact remains, it's not how town ought to behave.


I mean... the fact Toonyman admitted that he made up a reason to townread someone he already knew was town... can't believe more people aren't ready to lynch on this. Have you not been reading?

Fuck it, I guess scum managed something at the end of the day. I don't know any more. I can't tell what's going on with NQT in this little time, 50 replies get written while I'm still drafting my shitposts.

I'm not saying that you, personally, lynched ToonyMan. I'm holding you responsible for this post.

Also, Vector actioned LuckyOwl, trying to give them an ability which... charges, lets dead players vote on using my abilities, and if I'm Vector, lets them use one from a dead player instead. Want to keep that a secret? Can't see why.

I know because I switched with LuckyOwl today, and got the ability instead. Thanks!

Thank you for confirming that you were the recipient of my action, NJW, and that you have the ability to swap places with other people. However, you've lied about what it does. If you survive tonight, then the deadchat will be able to vote on an ability of yours to use in the day and night phases. Critically, if I am using this ability, I get to decide who in deadchat votes. If someone else is using it, deadchat just decides.

I did the math and figured that we have enough townies dead that scum can't outvote town regardless, so I decided to try to give it away to someone with more useful abilities who we wouldn't need to lynch and who wasn't likely to be NKed. It was a last ditch hail mary in case I get lynched today, on the off chance that the mostly-townie dead and I among them will have a way to counterbalance scum action. I imagine that the dead have been avidly discussing who is town and who isn't, and sharing information. So I thought I might as well act to their advantage.

It's MUCH better for me to have it on a member of the scumteam, though, so I'm going to go back to voting Leafsnail.

[TricMagic]

Vector in case it wasn't already obvious who I'm voting. If this means I lose, so be it. I still don't trust you and have been given no reasons to.

[Vector]

Nirur Torir, we need to actually get a lynch on someone today. I'm asking you to consider Leafsnail as we get closer to the end of the day.

Vector in case it wasn't already obvious who I'm voting. If this means I lose, so be it. I still don't trust you and have been given no reasons to.

You are literally voting me over (seemingly) nothing. I explained the purpose of the quotations I brought up. So what's the real problem here? It surely isn't that I was "vague."

Leafsnail may be scum, but if so, they've played a better town game than most.

OK, first, citation needed. I'm serious: you seem to think Leafsnail is solid town. I'm willing to consider that you're correct, but not on your word. Demonstrate for me and the others who want Leafsnail dead that Leafsnail has been doing a good job of hunting.

NJW: Why are you ignoring this?

[Vector]

Informal VC:

heydude - Leafsnail, Luckyowl, Nirur Torir
Leafsnail - Vector
Vector - Tric, NJW

Not voting: FallacyofUrist, heydude.

Those not voting: it's time. We need to make a decision.

[NJW2000]

Thank you for confirming that you were the recipient of my action, NJW, and that you have the ability to swap places with other people. However, you've lied about what it does. If you survive tonight, then the deadchat will be able to vote on an ability of yours to use in the day and night phases. Critically, if I am using this ability, I get to decide who in deadchat votes.

I did not lie about what it does.

I may have misunderstood the "when this ability is used by Vector, people in the deadchat may be chosen instead" (lightly paraphrased) part. Thank you for confirming that part though - I was wondering why scum would have an ability that lets the dead majority vote. Makes perfect sense that Vector could control who chose - which will obviously just be Jim Groovester.


You can jump on me for this misunderstanding, sure. Doing so in the knowledge that you recently broke the formal rules of this game by failing to count to seven.

Leafsnail may be scum, but if so, they've played a better town game than most.

OK, first, citation needed. I'm serious: you seem to think Leafsnail is solid town. I'm willing to consider that you're correct, but not on your word. Demonstrate for me and the others who want Leafsnail dead that Leafsnail has been doing a good job of hunting.

NJW: Why are you ignoring this?

Are you trying to manipulate me into defending him? You build a case that someone's mafia, not that someone's town.

Besides, I'm waiting for you to show me a post where I say Leafsnail is solid town. He's just playing better than FoU getting NQT killed instead of the main lynch target, better than your attack on heydude for hammering when you tried to, better than TricMagic's early single-minded pursuit of hats with zero regard for town's aims.

Or are you asking this because I think the votes on him were lazy and scummy? Because I do. Let's get into that.




Vector: Earlier on, you thought heydude and I were confirmed scum by LuckyOwl. You can't lie about this. You voted Leafsnail with LuckyOwl instead. You can't lie about this.
Why didn't you vote someone you thought was confirmed scum?

[Nirur Torir]

Nirur Torir, we need to actually get a lynch on someone today. I'm asking you to consider Leafsnail as we get closer to the end of the day.

That's a weird poke for me to get off of someone with more votes than Leafsnail.
I'll consider it if they're one of the two lynch candidates, but I have more energy now and want to practice better play than jumping on the lurker bandwagon at mylo/lylo, even if lurking is his biggest scumtell.

[Vector]

Nirur Torir, we need to actually get a lynch on someone today. I'm asking you to consider Leafsnail as we get closer to the end of the day.

That's a weird poke for me to get off of someone with more votes than Leafsnail.
I'll consider it if they're one of the two lynch candidates, but I have more energy now and want to practice better play than jumping on the lurker bandwagon at mylo/lylo, even if lurking is his biggest scumtell.

Yeah, I posted that before I did the informal vote count, oops. I thought the situation was reversed: three votes on Leafsnail and yours on heydude, or a tie -- whatever, point is, I didn't know heydude was a clear leader for the lynch.

[Mamobo]

Vote Count
------------------------
FallacyofUrist - 0 -
heydude6 - 3 - Nirur Torir*, Leafsnail*, Luckyowl*,
Leafsnail - 1 - Vector*,
Luckyowl - 0 -
Nirur Torir - 0 -
NJW2000 - 0 -
TricMagic - 0 -
Vector - 2 - TricMagic*, NJW2000*,
No Lynch - 0 -

Not Voting - 2 - FallacyofUrist, heydude6,

5 to Hammer. Day ends on January 07, 2021 at 19:00 CST (2 hours and 44 minutes remaining.)