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[notquitethere]

Fallacy, there's less than 3 hours to go. One of us can investigate Jim with a night action-- he's given cause enough for that-- but do you think there are enough players in thread in the next three hours to make that lynch? If not, get real and pick one of the three contenders. (You too, Luckyowl and heydude)

4mask, care to link me to a town game of Leafsnail 's where he had the same meta?

[FallacyofUrist]

Fallacy, there's less than 3 hours to go. One of us can investigate Jim with a night action-- he's given cause enough for that-- but do you think there are enough players in thread in the next three hours to make that lynch? If not, get real and pick one of the three contenders. (You too, Luckyowl and heydude)

Yeah, that's a good argument.

I do think that while we get information out of an inactive lynch, we still get more from an active lynch, due to their greater interaction and voting for other players. I think you can see that.

However since I don't want to vote ToonyMan and open up a hammer possibility which would cut off any claims he plans to make, that leaves me with a vote between Leafsnail and TricMagic. I still think Tric is a probable third party, knowing Wuba and knowing Tric wanted IcyTea dead to get a hat, but I'd rather lynch scum than a third party, and Leafsnail's done nothing to make me think he's particularly town, so... Leafsnail. For fairness' sake, though, I'm going to go over Leafsnail's posts after I plant this vote, to see if I want to keep the vote. I expect I will, but I at least want to check.

[Nirur Torir]

FoU: Are you only voting him because NQT said to vote someone? You're waffling a lot, going straight from: "It's not a scumtell for him to lurk because it's the holidays" to "Leafsnail hasn't helped town and I don't want scum to hammer Toony, so I'll vote Leafsnail. MAYBE!"

[ToonyMan]

The idea that lynching active players over less active players is just bogus. We get information on a flip no matter the activity level: we see who voted for the person and why and who was saved because of it.

This is exactly what I was talking about to dolores at the beginning of the game when I voted them. I don't care if you think a town and mafia player would act the same, their behavior will be different based on what they know about themselves and others. You can't stop that.

[ToonyMan]

You can't stop that.

Oh wait, there is one way.

Not posting.

[Vector]

Let me just talk for a minute about this bandwagon that's formed.

I made one serious poke at Toony. One.

To everyone who's trying to say that I'm making a bad case or a good case -- fuck off. It isn't a "case" but you all bandwagoned on it after one post like there was no tomorrow because you can't think for yourselves, have mistaken WoTing back and forth for scumhunting, and wanted to hide under scary Vector's skirt. There's a lot of bullshit that's taken root while the grownups have been away, and one of the things you apparently don't know about is what actually applying pressure looks like. I'm JUST VOTING HIM TO FIGURE OUT HIS ALIGNMENT YOU NUMBSKULLS. You IDIOTS. This is what doing the work looks like, you absolute lemon-sucking fools. Do I have to go on? I can get a lot louder and nastier, but y'all's opinions are flip-flopping without even a stiff breeze, and I'm worried my breath will knock you over.

Now, you can't ALL be scum, so I'm just going to remind you: you can't be sure that I'm not scum either. I'm sad that the game has devolved to this point, but if you're following me because I'm a strong player, I'd like to remind you that the way I earned that reputation for strength was through being scum with an active, WoTing daygame, picking lynches one by one, turning the town against itself, and making everyone I could into a sheep. If I were a scum player, would you want to be on a bandwagon I triggered? No? Then go start working.

All THREE of today's lynch picks are players that I identified. You're LUCKY I didn't roll up scum in this game because you guys would be fucked six ways from Sunday.


FallacyofUrist, did you even think for two minutes that maybe Jim is reading my posts instead of everybody else's because the bandwagon formed after my vote? Or that maybe despite all of Dolores and ICT congratulating themselves on being brilliant players, most of what they have had to say at this point has contributed nothing to the game? He's listening to me because I know what I'm doing.

Stop taking free rides on everyone else's cases. You're starting to look like you want someone hanged and you don't care who.


Similarly: everyone who is piling on the bandwagon on the basis of my case is an idiot. ICT and Dolores don't actually have a case on Toony and Dolores has been taking it easy in my wake for the entirety of D1. I haven't figured out if that's a case of misplaced mentor-enthusiasm or buddying, but I'm just gonna say it: hey sweetie, I have faith in you. You can write short posts that have actual content. Maybe you'd like to try it sometime.

Nirur Torir especially jumped on that case like it was going out of style. 4th on the bandwagon, baby. If Toony flips town, so help me, I'm going to jump down your throat.

[FallacyofUrist]

The answer to all of these is the same - I have had incredibly little time over the past few days due to family commitments. Looking for where my name has been bolded and skimming for the points that looked actually interesting (IcyTea's alleged slip, TricMagic not being town) among the multiple massive walls that I have neither the time nor inclination to read is all I can manage.

This makes me want to give him the benefit of the doubt with regards to lurking.

There's still some post content I can look through and am looking through. My vote on him is provisional until I finish with that.

Ninja'd by Vector.

Dear goodness you're intimidating.

FallacyofUrist, did you even think for two minutes that maybe Jim is reading my posts instead of everybody else's because the bandwagon formed after my vote? Or that maybe despite all of Dolores and ICT congratulating themselves on being brilliant players, most of what they have had to say at this point has contributed nothing to the game? He's listening to me because I know what I'm doing.

That's a valid point, but he didn't even make mention of why he only read your case, which makes me think he wasn't taking that into consideration.

[ToonyMan]

Nirur Torir especially jumped on that case like it was going out of style. 4th on the bandwagon, baby. If Toony flips town, so help me, I'm going to jump down your throat.

Vector, I think you're mafia with Leafsnail soooo good luck with that. Also, you're assuming I definitely will be lynched today.

Why aren't you talking about Leafsnail? I asked you about Leaf yesterday and you didn't mention him once between me getting off and coming back on today, or now, in your post here.

[NJW2000]

Ooh, is Toony in the distancing phase of scum? He's nearly ready to emerge from his chrysalis 

Nirur Torir especially jumped on that case like it was going out of style. 4th on the bandwagon, baby. If Toony flips town, so help me, I'm going to jump down your throat.

Except... were they 4th? Not vote-wise. No particular point I'm trying to make here, just seems like this is literally speaking false.

-

Gosh. Someone seems to have a rather inflated idea of their own relevance to the wagon on Toony. Or perhaps a desire not to see a certain player lynched? As your vote hasn't moved, I'll assume the former.

4mask4wolf was voting Toony before you were - seven pages, to be exact. Doll's initial case on Toony is entirely based on an interaction I had with him. IcyTea's case was based on an interaction he had with Toony. Doesn't even mention you. My vote is based on the scumhunting I did on Toony, eventually getting him to claim he aimed to deceive town as town. I suppose we can assume everyone else voting Toony did so on the basis of your single post on him twenty pages back, though...

Why the false narrative, Vec? Are you following the wonderful example of Jim Groovester, another extremely strong and modest player, in not rereading the thread? Or did you carefully read the last twenty pages and still come out thinking you're the lynchpin in some idiotic bandwagon or powerwolf play to get Toony lynched?

I'm not saying we're not morons lynching town, mind. I won't know for another few hours. You just have this strange notion that you're anything to do with it.

[Vector]

Nirur Torir especially jumped on that case like it was going out of style. 4th on the bandwagon, baby. If Toony flips town, so help me, I'm going to jump down your throat.

Vector, I think you're mafia with Leafsnail soooo good luck with that. Also, you're assuming I definitely will be lynched today.

Why aren't you talking about Leafsnail? I asked you about Leaf yesterday and you didn't mention him once between me getting off and coming back on today, or now, in your post here.

LOL. No, I'm not mafia, with Leafsnail or otherwise.

I think I mentioned something about Leafsnail in a spoiler in my late-night post, but I'll rewrite it here: Right now, I'm focusing on you, a person who I think is scum. I know, because you are a pretty good player, that if I don't work at it, I'm not going to catch you making mistakes. So yeah, I'm focusing on you.

Additionally: The only thing I have on Leafsnail is his meta, and a. it's been more than 5 years for me so who knows, people change and b. it was Christmas. But on you, I have material to work with. So I'm working with that material.

Speaking of which, you ignored my last question in that post about why you were asking Heydude what he thinks about your softclaim of his alignment.

Nirur Torir especially jumped on that case like it was going out of style. 4th on the bandwagon, baby. If Toony flips town, so help me, I'm going to jump down your throat.

Except... were they 4th? Not vote-wise. No particular point I'm trying to make here, just seems like this is literally speaking false.

I'm talking about the bandwagon part of it, where Toony suddenly became the leading candidate in two or three pages, immediately after I said "fuck it." NT was the 4th vote on that, and he explicitly referenced my post.

Dolores has been following me through a lot of the game. I'm not talking about where the cases came from, I'm talking about when and why the votes started piling up.

[juicebox]

A ToonyMan lynch is dumb.

This is about the laziest, most groupthink lynch I think I've seen on this board.

I've only really read Vector's case on ToonyMan (couldn't be bothered to read anybody else's) and it's punishing ToonyMan for making himself available for people to pick at. ToonyMan is 115% correct that he should've done a disappearing act like TricMagic instead of what he did do, which was do well-intentioned town play. Did he play perfectly? Doubtful. Did he try? Yes.

I think that the fact that Toonyman hasn't really made an effort to defend themself is also telling.

Did you read the thread? (I did, but not closely.)

ToonyMan spent most of yesterday defending himself.

I meant that ToonyMan only really made one post concerning Dolores' case and that was to say that their suspicions were founded. They also mentioned that they did have mechanical knowledge that led them to believe that heydude is town, which doesn't really constitute a defense to me, since scum can easily make that claim.

juicebox: Which of ToonyMan or TricMagic would you prefer as a lynch? Your vote on Leafsnail isn't doing a lot right now (unless we get a classic end-of-day shuffle).

Out of the two I would have to say Toonyman has a greater chance of actually being scum, so I would prefer to lynch them.

[IcyTea31]

So I should be lynched because I'm playing and Leafsnail isn't? You're encouraging every player to never post by saying this.

No, you should be lynched over Leafsnail because you're more scummy than Leafsnail.

The idea that lynching active players over less active players is just bogus. We get information on a flip no matter the activity level: we see who voted for the person and why and who was saved because of it.

Take that to its extreme and say it makes sense: would it be easier or harder to find scum if nobody was able to post any argument other than votes? Lurkers are a decent second choice when one doesn't have an actual scum read from activity, but lynching one means that the D2 will begin the same way D1 ended: without an actual scum read (though if one can credibly believe all the active players are town, then cheerio, town has won the game).


Vector: you're greatly overestimating your role in my play.

[ToonyMan]

@NJW2000:

Ooh, is Toony in the distancing phase of scum? He's nearly ready to emerge from his chrysalis 

Haha, if I'm incriminating the actual scum team then I am 100% for it.

My vote is based on the scumhunting I did on Toony, eventually getting him to claim he aimed to deceive town as town.

This is incredibly misleading and you know that. Why would a cop claim a non-mafia result Day 1? Fuck off.

Why the false narrative, Vec? Are you following the wonderful example of Jim Groovester, another extremely strong and modest player, in not rereading the thread? Or did you carefully read the last twenty pages and still come out thinking you're the lynchpin in some idiotic bandwagon or powerwolf play to get Toony lynched?

I'm not sure either. I think Vector has scummy reasons for voting me though.


@Vector:

Speaking of which, you ignored my last question in that post about why you were asking Heydude what he thinks about your softclaim of his alignment.

My mistake. I'm curious what he thinks of all this. He still hasn't posted though...

I'm talking about the bandwagon part of it, where Toony suddenly became the leading candidate in two or three pages, immediately after I said "fuck it." NT was the 4th vote on that, and he explicitly referenced my post.
Dolores has been following me through a lot of the game. I'm not talking about where the cases came from, I'm talking about when and why the votes started piling up.

You're right. I am also baffled by the bandwagon after your vote.

[ToonyMan]

I meant that ToonyMan only really made one post concerning Dolores' case and that was to say that their suspicions were founded. They also mentioned that they did have mechanical knowledge that led them to believe that heydude is town, which doesn't really constitute a defense to me, since scum can easily make that claim.

Fair enough.

So I should be lynched because I'm playing and Leafsnail isn't? You're encouraging every player to never post by saying this.

No, you should be lynched over Leafsnail because you're more scummy than Leafsnail.

Hey Leafsnail, what do you think?

*crickets*

Yeah I'm sure he'll help town on Day 2.

[4maskwolf]

Oh get off your high horse, Vector.

notquitethere: I'm going to summarize my recent thoughts on Toony because we don't have much time left.

Toonyman lost his mind at the mason claims.  He recovered since then, but he spent a good few hours wildly ping-ponging based almost entirely on the expressed views of non-mason members of the thread.  When initially claimed, he accepted it with some grumpiness.  When we didn't let up pressing him, he started looking for holes and trying to fish for information about our roles.  When called out on that, he revised history and claimed he'd "only been asking webadict for clarity" in spite of the quoted post being of him trying to fish for more information about "Hydraform" directly from icy.  When Fallacy started spouting conspiracy theories it was all aboard the conspiracy train for Toony.  And then finally, when cooler heads prevailed and the prevailing attitude became "wait and see, the truth will come out eventually", he went right back to "okay, they're probably masons, but I'm still angry about it."  While I think some of the cases on him, especially Dolores', are either pedantic or just plain lazy, I certainly think he's scum.

Today, Toony had just been bitching about his situation, and frankly I sympathize: he was the runaway favorite for the lynch in no small part because Tricmagic just flamed out and stopped posting, and everyone just moved on with the time left in the day.  It sucks, regardless of alignment, to see someone else avoid the noose by just not playing and slip your neck into it because you were the active player.  And then along you come, going door to door asking people to join the "lynch lurkers" train.  Come on guys, Toonyman's just a strong townie who's being MLd, let's all CFD someone who likely won't be around to present a defense!  Why?  Well, because I say this is his scum meta.  I'm also going to demand that people who disagree provide proof it's his townmeta despite providing no games of evidence that it's his scum meta.  Toony of course jumps on, he's been looking for a way out since the votes started piling up yesterday.  And off you go, ringing your little bell, trying to scrounge up a counterwagon out of spare parts.

It's certainly interesting.  I'm actually less interested in seeing Toony flip now than I am in seeing your flip, but I don't have any belief I could swing that with only hours left and half the game not present.  So I'll stick with Toonyman.

Toonyman: I do sympathize.  I don't like Leafsnail's lurkiness either, regardless of his alignment.  I don't like the fact that Tricmagic got to just ignore the heat he built up because he burned out and stopped playing for 24 hours.  The problem is, there's a difference between anti-town and scum.  Tric and leafsnail are anti-town.  And no matter how much I hate lurkers, and how much I don't want to encourage lurky play patterns, I'm not going to leave scum alive just to get rid of a nonentity.