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[TricMagic]

All I can really say is wait till night to off me, since I can then make the No Bonk Badge available, as well as buy it and send it to another person.

I thought you said you needed to kill me to do that?

If you die, I get the hat you have. If you didn't have a hat, there would be no reason for your death. The Badges are completely separate from the number of hats I have. Put simply it's a 2/3 chance of me getting a hat that will keep me and others alive. In case of Ice, I can easily apply priority to it and intercept for someone. In the case of Brewer, I gain the ability to roleblock. In the case of Dweller, it's a loss for me. Sure it can give me badges, but it can also give tech or guns. The latter isn't that great for me, since that reduces the number of town more often than Mafia. More likely it would just become a town tool to learn things early rather than normal lynches.

[4maskwolf]

All I can really say is wait till night to off me, since I can then make the No Bonk Badge available, as well as buy it and send it to another person.

I thought you said you needed to kill me to do that?

If you die, I get the hat you have. If you didn't have a hat, there would be no reason for your death. The Badges are completely separate from the number of hats I have. Put simply it's a 2/3 chance of me getting a hat that will keep me and others alive. In case of Ice, I can easily apply priority to it and intercept for someone. In the case of Brewer, I gain the ability to roleblock. In the case of Dweller, it's a loss for me. Sure it can give me badges, but it can also give tech or guns. The latter isn't that great for me, since that reduces the number of town more often than Mafia. More likely it would just become a town tool to learn things early rather than normal lynches.

Does your entire role just exist to fuck with the game mechanics and encourage you to do anti-town things?

[FallacyofUrist]

heydude:

To note, apparently I wasn't meant to be sent fries. Webadict has a 'holiday brain' as they said.

It seems like he also did not receive my fries.

TricMagic:

If you die, I get the hat you have. If you didn't have a hat, there would be no reason for your death. The Badges are completely separate from the number of hats I have. Put simply it's a 2/3 chance of me getting a hat that will keep me and others alive. In case of Ice, I can easily apply priority to it and intercept for someone. In the case of Brewer, I gain the ability to roleblock. In the case of Dweller, it's a loss for me. Sure it can give me badges, but it can also give tech or guns. The latter isn't that great for me, since that reduces the number of town more often than Mafia. More likely it would just become a town tool to learn things early rather than normal lynches.

Do you want IcyTea dead badly enough, for the sake of your hat, that you don't care whether they're town or not? Or do you think they're not town?

[TricMagic]

TricMagic:

If you die, I get the hat you have. If you didn't have a hat, there would be no reason for your death. The Badges are completely separate from the number of hats I have. Put simply it's a 2/3 chance of me getting a hat that will keep me and others alive. In case of Ice, I can easily apply priority to it and intercept for someone. In the case of Brewer, I gain the ability to roleblock. In the case of Dweller, it's a loss for me. Sure it can give me badges, but it can also give tech or guns. The latter isn't that great for me, since that reduces the number of town more often than Mafia. More likely it would just become a town tool to learn things early rather than normal lynches.

Do you want IcyTea dead badly enough, for the sake of your hat, that you don't care whether they're town or not? Or do you think they're not town?

The main thing is a lack of willingness to give information when someone already did. The fact they apparently have an extra action now does not help IcyTea. The extra action I got does not help me at all, less I just want to do Leave a Comment for whatever reason. For whatever reason I'm being voted, so if you see IcyTea do strange things at night later on, now you know it's the Dweller Mask. Never actually changed my vote back. Still don't like the guy who just up'n'up and gave me a second action though, given it's uselessness to me. It doesn't actually change anything, picking a new badge is automatic.

[Jim Groovester]

Lazy, uninspired, low content, anemic scumhunting

I'm seeing this pop up a lot as a reason for voting people on a bunch of different cases. Is there anybody actually having a good Day 1?

And now you're voting Toaster for the perfectly acceptable action of asking for your list of suspicions.

I already gave a list:

Fair enough on me not paying attention.

If I read it right your case on Toaster is that he voted you and then didn't do the work to eventually conclude you're town. Do I have that right?

How is your case on Toaster not an elaborate OMGUS?

To note, haven't read the rest, but this is the last day of play for me. Given I have no more hats, and people are pushing to kill me, ala Toaster? I propose this scumteam.

Why are you giving up when the day ends on the 29th?

Also, make sure to Leave a Comment, am I town or mafia? Well, not the latter, I propose we all say DOWN WITH THE MAFIA instead. Holds up sign with a crossed out cook.

Oh, so you are a third party. Neato. TricMagic.

I'm trying to think of a third party win condition that isn't friendly to the mafia but I'm only coming up with SK or Cult but I'm not that creative when it comes to BYOR mechanics and alignments.

[IcyTea31]

If I read it right your case on Toaster is that he voted you and then didn't do the work to eventually conclude you're town. Do I have that right?

How is your case on Toaster not an elaborate OMGUS?

Because he's not willing to engage with me about his vote, despite effort on my part. Good town don't say "you're scum, discussion over," because they know they might be wrong, and discussing the matter is the best way to become certain. Scum already know their target is town, so they don't care about the discussion.

In other words, if he's town and does the work, he'll conclude I'm town, and wants do it to avoid a mislynch. If he's scum, he already knows I'm town and has no reason to do the work.

[heydude6]

I'm trying to think of a third party win condition that isn't friendly to the mafia but I'm only coming up with SK or Cult but I'm not that creative when it comes to BYOR mechanics and alignments.

Alignment: Survivor
Wincon: You win if you are alive when the game ends.

Alignment: Watcher
Wincon: You win when the game reaches Day [day_number].

Alignment: [alignment_type]-Ally
Wincon: You win when [alignment_type] wins.

Alignment: Brother
Wincon: You win when [player_name] wins.

Alignment: Outsider
Wincon: You win when [other_wincon] is accomplished.

Eh, do these not count? I will admit that having other players have hats makes Tricmagic a pseduo-executioner, but all it means is that you have to take his reads with a grain of salt. It's not the most disruptive thing in the world, is it?

[Jim Groovester]

If I read it right your case on Toaster is that he voted you and then didn't do the work to eventually conclude you're town. Do I have that right?

How is your case on Toaster not an elaborate OMGUS?

Because he's not willing to engage with me about his vote, despite effort on my part. Good town don't say "you're scum, discussion over," because they know they might be wrong, and discussing the matter is the best way to become certain. Scum already know their target is town, so they don't care about the discussion.

In other words, if he's town and does the work, he'll conclude I'm town, and wants do it to avoid a mislynch. If he's scum, he already knows I'm town and has no reason to do the work.

So it actually is an elaborate OMGUS, gotcha.

Have you considered that maybe you're bad at arguing your case? It's not uncommon (and actually quite frequent) that town players mislynch other town players despite both players best and earnest efforts. Stubbornly asserting that any other player will find you town after sufficient engagement with you is naïve.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Alignment: Survivor
Wincon: You win if you are alive when the game ends.

Alignment: Watcher
Wincon: You win when the game reaches Day [day_number].

Alignment: [alignment_type]-Ally
Wincon: You win when [alignment_type] wins.

Alignment: Brother
Wincon: You win when [player_name] wins.

Alignment: Outsider
Wincon: You win when [other_wincon] is accomplished.

Eh, do these not count? I will admit that having other players have hats makes Tricmagic a pseduo-executioner, but all it means is that you have to take his reads with a grain of salt. It's not the most disruptive thing in the world, is it?

I looked at those but none of those strike me as unfriendly to the scum team, which is what TricMagic claimed.

[FallacyofUrist]

Also, make sure to Leave a Comment, am I town or mafia? Well, not the latter, I propose we all say DOWN WITH THE MAFIA instead. Holds up sign with a crossed out cook.

Huh, missed this the first time around. Thanks to Jim Groovester for putting it in his post (though I still think he's being lazy and voting for someone who's 80% likely to be a third party instead of trying to find someone who's actually scum).

It's still a compelling reason to vote Tric, it's just that we shouldn't settle for Tric who looks like a third party outsider when there's actual scum to hunt. Of course maybe he's mafia, I can't know what Wuba's thinking, but I still think third party is more likely, especially given this quote.

I'm seeing this pop up a lot as a reason for voting people on a bunch of different cases. Is there anybody actually having a good Day 1?

I am absolutely having fun! Except someone messed with my fry-giving action. Sad ;w;

Eh, do these not count? I will admit that having other players have hats makes Tricmagic a pseduo-executioner, but all it means is that you have to take his reads with a grain of salt. It's not the most disruptive thing in the world, is it?

If TricMagic is a third party outsider who needs his hats to win, then he wins by getting his hats, and he'll do whatever it takes to get them. Up to and including siding with other anti-town players if they're more likely to help him get his hats. Were you in Mafiakart Racing? That's a pretty good example of what can happen with third parties like this. In that game I was an Outsider who won by collecting extra actions, and while I offered to side with Town, a serial killer and a mafia player were my clients - and because they were the ones to help me get towards my win condition, I helped them get towards theirs. As a result of the catgirlification buff I granted, there was a joint win by serial killers (and me).

The lesson to be learned? If a third party player isn't explicitly bound to town with something like a Brother win condition, then they will switch sides whenever it is convenient to do so for their win condition. That's another reason why I'm voting for Tric, although I still think finding scum is a higher priority. Lynching a mafia player will be more valuable to us than lynching a potentially anti-town third party.

[4maskwolf]

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Alignment: Survivor
Wincon: You win if you are alive when the game ends.

Alignment: Watcher
Wincon: You win when the game reaches Day [day_number].

Alignment: [alignment_type]-Ally
Wincon: You win when [alignment_type] wins.

Alignment: Brother
Wincon: You win when [player_name] wins.

Alignment: Outsider
Wincon: You win when [other_wincon] is accomplished.

Eh, do these not count? I will admit that having other players have hats makes Tricmagic a pseduo-executioner, but all it means is that you have to take his reads with a grain of salt. It's not the most disruptive thing in the world, is it?

I looked at those but none of those strike me as unfriendly to the scum team, which is what TricMagic claimed.

Town-ally or brother to a known townie would be, but town ally is basically a bastard mod wincon and there aren't any innocent childs this game.

[Vector]

Confirmed 3rd party:

TricMagic


Acting crazy:

FallacyofUrist - I am leaning "stupid town" on FoU at this point. I have a really hard time believing that they would be able to tolerate such a wild opener as scum. I also feel that a scum player would know who they wanted to target in order to boost themselves; they wouldn't need to screw around to find out.
Luckyowl - a noob. I'll say probably town but only because I am pretty sure they're not a third party and I was able to find four people who are more conventionally scummy.
IcyTea31 - I really don't like their playstyle, at least in this particular game. I don't have any ability to read their alignment because they've been focused exclusively on drawing attention to themselves without drawing much by way of conclusions. I also felt that there was a lot of "you are scummy because you are attacking Me, a Townie," which is incredibly lazy at best. My gut doesn't think they're scum, but goodness gracious do they piss me off. I'm going to be looking for more active and outward-facing activity going into D2.
heydude6 - The whole fake-claiming saga was pretty silly, but again, I think a scumteam would have at least let them know that "post your role PM in the main thread" would not be something Web gave them as part of a contract. They seem to be making a good faith effort.


Probable town:

NJW2000 - I agree in general with what Dolores has said.
Toaster - This is a soft read at best but he has been calling people in and encouraging people not to tunnel on 3rd parties. I think that this is town Toaster, although I've always had more trouble reading them.
Jim Groovester - This post sounds like town Jim to me. Specifically mentioning muddying the waters and wearing out the town in a day which has definitely been very high on BS -- yeah, believable.
notquitethere - another soft read. NQT is usually more engaged but it's definitely true that their style gets rolling as the game goes on. I still remember his BM where things built up into a steamroller at the end. I'm not going to be able to get anything clearer on this dude until D2.


Probably scum:

4maskwolf - lurking with an RVS vote when the game has moved on long ago. I actually think I've played with this player before and although they're usually somewhat disengaged, it's not this disengaged. This read is softer than the other ones on the list.
Leafsnail - meta-wise, this is definitely not Town Leafsnail.
Nirur Torir - Nirur Torir has actually played a number of games. With me. I think I actually trained them in a BM at one point. Anyhow: this is a gut read, but I think they're scum.
ToonyMan - I don't for a second believe that town!Toony would throw out a quick comment on Leafsnail's meta and then not follow up on it, especially given his other activity in the game (i.e. he's not tunneling anyone right now, he hasn't been working to cut through the noise). I think that was about distancing.


Probably town by process of elimination:

juicebox - Just kinda here. I'm not too concerned with their behavior at the moment.
dolores - I really hated the early-game grandstanding and declarations of intended selfishness. I think they are doing a good job of finding leads and following up on them right now.


I'm town, BTW 9_9


Given the above -- why I'm still voting TricMagic -- I think it's the point of the day when we need to focus and get shit done. I don't think we should leave TricMagic alive. My gut reads feel pretty solid to me on the probable scumteam, but for the most part this is based on meta on a D1 including Christmas, a day of traditionally low activity.

(Also: honestly, I don't have the energy to start tunneling down people's throats right now. Pushing against the B12 tendency to lynch noobs on policy D1 took a lot of effort.)

A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.

Eh, do these not count? I will admit that having other players have hats makes Tricmagic a pseduo-executioner, but all it means is that you have to take his reads with a grain of salt. It's not the most disruptive thing in the world, is it?

Ninja'd by FoU, but still: The problem is that 3rd-parties can usually wheel and deal with the mafia to win together. It's less about "disruptive" and more about "we need to be mindful that their vote won't be on our side when we get to MYLO or LYLO." Also: 3rd-parties are solo actors who usually have a strong incentive to lie but don't have a scumteam that they're trying not to fuck over. It's hard to find them (in my opinion) because you can't chain-lynch them, and you generally can't trust their role-claims to be honest.

I'm somewhat more sympathetic to Tric because of self-revealing 3rd party status early. However, I still don't buy the whole "lynch ICT because I want their hat" thing. I know I've said that over and over again, but "this ability that they might have but I'm not actually sure could be misused by scum" does not seem like a good reason to vote someone off the island.

[NJW2000]

NJW2000: I said it seems scummy to write a wall of text. For there's no real reason to do so. Putting pressure on someone is anti-town especially if you're trying to do it early on. The two votes I got were justified. But that's only because I'm trying to see who will take the bait. Juicebox took the bait and now I suspect him for being scum.

I don't agree with this logic, but this is an acceptable answer. Glad to see you asking some questions.

Unvote.


Toonyman:

Spoiler: spoilered for brevity (click to show/hide)

@NJW2000:

In any case: IcyTea claims the PMs weren't even sent at the same time, rather at least a couple of minutes apart. There's definitely the possibility that heydude was sent his even earlier. Also, even if IcyTea can be considered to have 100% confirmed that heydude was completely truthful about the times, the following logic holds

I think I can see what you're saying. Let me try to break this down:

Case 1:
1. Heydude is the contract sender
2. Heydude sends a contract to IcyTea and then claims he was targeted as well
3. Heydude fakes a contract that incriminates IcyTea, nearly getting him modkilled
4. IcyTea obviously calls him out for lying
5. Heydude backs down off IcyTea

I think this is more likely than Case 2. Heydude could be town or mafia here, but I don't believe this right now.

Case 2:
1. The contract sender is someone else, possibly on a scum team with Heydude
2. Heydude "receives" the contract earlier than he claims, possibly coordinates with his buddies first
3. Heydude pretends to flip out and creates a fake PM that incriminates IcyTea, nearly getting him modkilled
4. IcyTea also claims to have received a contract, obviously calls Heydude out for lying, is able to verify the contents
5. Heydude backs down off IcyTea

This only makes sense if Heydude is scum, but I don't believe this is true either. It implies Heydude and the contract sender are on the same team, and it makes their actions baffling just to take down IcyTea, who was already a lynch candidate.

This all very reasonable. On consideration, I think I'd agree. However, the possibility that Heydude was the contract sender wasn't what I was getting at - although I'll have to think about it. My main concern is this:

So Toonyman, why is rapidly sharing information someone else has anyway indicative that the sharer is town?

My impression from Heydude's panicking is that he didn't know anyone else had that information and wanted to help town ASAP, did you know?

No, I didn't know. BUT: Whoever sent the contract must have known. I understand that town!heydude very likely strongly believes whoever targeted him was anti-town, but for scum!heydude there's a very real possibility that whoever sent it was town, and thus had information that could be shared with town if he held onto it for too long.

Why is the possibility that Heydude is scum and worried that a townie sent the contract (forcing him to reveal it immediately) so hard to grasp?
Do you know he's town? Did you send the contract yourself, and thus find it difficult to envision someone calling him out for holding on to the information?

At this point, I'm not very concerned about heydude - more about this particular feature of your response.

We're playing with a lot of players who, although they might have played a game or two, never participated in the whole Beginner's Mafia process. I'm committing less to attacking small slip-ups because small slips are easy to tunnel on.

I also haven't played for a long time and am very aware of the mistakes I have tended to make in the past. I want to work harder on hunting instead of indulging in "so and so looks scummy, let's hang them."

I'm not sure I understood all this.

Do you mean that you're less committed to attacking small slip-ups as they are often committed as town by newer players like LuckyOwl, or to a lesser extent myself? If so, then why would this standard need to be applied to IcyTea, something of a vet, as far as I understand it?
If not, and it's just about generally avoiding tunneling, is there any particular reason you mentioned the fact there are newer players here?

This was in response to something leafsnail said to dolores:

Spoiler: spoilered for brevity (click to show/hide)

Leafsnail: why does Vector's post about ICT's 'slip' bother you so much more than Toasters, is it just because it's noncomittal? Since you don't believe in the 'slip' as a scumslip, how do you feel about the fact that Toaster is doubling down on it as such?

Yes, as I said the reason why Vector's posts bothered me is that it was noncommittal. I think that Toaster is wrong but being wrong is not a scumtell in and of itself.

Did you not feel Leafsnail gave you a chance to defend yourself?

PPE: I did see your recent post says something about being too tired to tunnel. I take it that this means too tired to start scumhunting via specific posts? I've only ever heard "tunnel" used to mean an irrationally tight focus on getting another player lynched, as in "NJW stop tunneling Persus you're suffering from obvious confirmation bias".


Not sure what to say about the TricMagic thing. He seems... dangerous, I guess, although possibly of use to town. To be honest I wouldn't have a huge problem with him killing IcyTea, so long as he managed it in the night somehow and explained how he did it, rather than using the lynch to do so. The lynch is for town to kill scum with, not for 3rd party to kill nasty self-voters. We hates the self-voters, precious. Anyway.



Tricmagic: You seem fairly certain you'll die today. That may not in fact be a losing position. As far as I understand the comment system, we can seriously mess with the game, and possibly even your wincon if it's thirdparty, via the comments ability (correct me if I'm wrong), provided we know your role and alignment. How would you feel about a deal in which you help town further somehow, perhaps by giving up your hats, and we try to change your wincon with comments so that you can still win after dying?

Bastard stuff, to be sure, but as far as I can tell it might be possible.

[IcyTea31]

I don't have any ability to read their alignment because they've been focused exclusively on drawing attention to themselves without drawing much by way of conclusions.

I mean, you're the one who told me to go to sleep after spending a whole night doing just that. You're the one who asked me for a reads list, and I delivered. You didn't get anything from that?

[notquitethere]

Tric, a lot of players think you're 3rd party. You're quite likely to die today or at least catch a hostile night action at this rate. Do you want to claim what your role really is?

[Luckyowl]

IcyTea31: Could you explain what your Hydraform ability do? You don't have to go in details just give us a skeletal overview on it. You said it can help both Mafia and town. If that's correct, in what way can it help town? In what way can it help Mafia?

TricMagic: You said your win con isn't collecting hats and that your wincon involve mafia's defeat? Could you tell us what your win-con so we can start trusting you?

I've been wondering if the scumteam are the bosses from the hat in time. Anyone who have played the game was there some sort of Hydra thing?