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Author Topic: Vanilla Tea Mafia: TOWN VICTORY  (Read 56471 times)

NJW2000

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Re: Vanilla Tea Mafia: Day Two: Nature or Nurture?
« Reply #270 on: August 29, 2019, 09:09:48 am »

Why are you so certain about the Mafia's motivations for their decisions despite not being Mafia?
I'm not certain, some of that was of course guesses about mafia motives. Could be wrong. Perhaps the fact that I called out superdorf didn't play into their thinking at all, for example, we may never know.

My mechanical analysis of the night does not depend on guesses about their motivations, however, except for my assumption that the two people I know are lying are therefore mafia.

Neither does the bit where Pooka seemingly starts talking to Superdorf while replying to me.
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IcyTea31

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Re: Vanilla Tea Mafia: Day Two: Nature or Nurture?
« Reply #271 on: August 29, 2019, 09:14:29 am »

A Follower learns the action verb of their target (e.g. Protect, Kill, Inspect...).
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Naturegirl1999

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Re: Vanilla Tea Mafia: Day Two: Nature or Nurture?
« Reply #272 on: August 29, 2019, 09:33:05 am »

Also Naturegirl, I need you to fullclaim your role.
Full Claim?
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Superdorf

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Re: Vanilla Tea Mafia: Day Two: Nature or Nurture?
« Reply #273 on: August 29, 2019, 09:36:04 am »

Such wonderful wonderful vitriol! This is how Mafia is meant to be played. ^-^
We're at a point now where either NJW or Pooka must be lying, yes? Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, please; I'm curious to know what third options there are, if any.

If I were a mafioso, I'd have done what you said, disown the roleblocking and pretend to be something else. But why would I just claim that I'm a roleblocker of all things publicly? I must be either a mad man of a mafioso walking into literal suicide, or...I'm actually a town roleblocker, as luck would have it.

Just for the record... any statement beginning along the lines of "If I were mafia..." tends to be rife with WiFoM, 'cos by definition the only person who really truly knows how a given person would act as mafia is that very person.

Also: assuming you're town-- just for the sake of argument-- you've proven yourself that town roleblockers are a thing. A mafia roleblocker might claim that part of his role, knowing that the role itself is not alignment-indicative; any role-inspections or tracks on him would simply serve to strengthen his claim!

WiFoM!
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Superdorf

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Re: Vanilla Tea Mafia: Day Two: Nature or Nurture?
« Reply #274 on: August 29, 2019, 09:38:34 am »

Also Naturegirl, I need you to fullclaim your role.
Full Claim?
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Ooh, this would explain that little notification I got... excellent!
Mm, does this claim affect any of our other speculations at all? I don't think it really does.
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NJW2000

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Re: Vanilla Tea Mafia: Day Two: Nature or Nurture?
« Reply #275 on: August 29, 2019, 09:45:40 am »

Ah, good. Now to see two scum defend themselves for all they're worth.

Apparently the mafia became a little anxious when I called out a scum player, but were afraid to nightkill Super's main critic. In Superdorf, this manifested as a sudden "hunch" I was scum. Pooka meanwhile decided to visit his scumbuddy - and claim roleblocker into the bargain. Not a bad tactic to restore his reputation, really.
The hunch you mention? I had that hunch because you were buddying up to me. It had nothing to do with Superdorf. It also just so happened that this hunch was part of my very first and only read list I had so far, when I felt I had enough info to decide who scaled who. Also, I read the last 150 posts or so. If we go with what you're saying that Superdorf and I are scumbuddies, then what you said before my reads list was not enough to have me panic about you going after him. There's literally nothing worrying my scum self in the game to warrant this maneuver of yours.
That hunch I mention? That's superdorf's hunch. Do try not to panic, it makes this bit so much less fun for me.

I could try and make the best of the garbled mess below that sentence, but it seems to have been written on the assumption that I was talking about your claims I was "pocketing" you. Reread the bit you quoted, it's clear that I was talking about Superdorf's response at the start of D2 after I presented the case on him at the end of D1.


Also very worth noting in the above post that Pooka says "if a kill was blocked, I have reason to suspect you, and if a kill wasn't blocked, I also have reason to believe you didn't do any killing that night", as if talking to Superdorf, the guy he supposedly roleblocked, while replying to me. In such a rush you copy-pasted your excuse from a scumchat, eh? I mean, it's more than I need, but still, thanks for the scumslip.
You're really trying to find ANYTHING to make me look like the scum. I replied to you because you made the allegation that I was not the roleblocker, so I said yes, I am the roleblocker. Then I proceeded to answer Superdorf's question when he gave me the Finger of Suspicion:

...Pooka's the roleblocker?
Pooka? What gives?
I didn't quote it because 1) I'm lazy and I was distracted by talking to someone at the time, and 2) I figured it would be obvious who I was answering. The "you"s is Superdorf, the guy who asked me what gives.
I mean... I can see that you might not have expressed yourself clearly by accident, but I didn't automatically search for the "what gives?" question a page back when I saw the response starting "the reason". I thought you were providing a reason for the block you just claimed to have made. In the same paragraph. In the previous sentence. And to be fair, that is exactly what you were doing. Just in reply to something you didn't quote, a page back.

So you were replying to Superdorf, but in a completely normal way. I see.


In your favor, that is, scum.
Very helpful.

Here are the night's actions:
- Pooka (Watcher) watched Superdorf (????)
- Naturegirl (Bodyguard) protected Superdorf (????)
- Persus (Universal Backup - Tracker) tracked Pooka (Watcher)
- NJW (Follower) followed Pooka (Watcher)
- Someone (almost definitely Superdorf) killed 4maskwolf.
Actually come to think of it, I like how you claim I watched Superdorf, but only after Persus came out saying that I did visit Superdorf. This way, you would have a leg for your theory to stand on, since someone else can confirm I visited the dude, and then you managed to spin it up into a mutual lying story as some form of desperation attack or something.

...nevermind the fact that if it's indeed a scummy tactic and we were both scum, then Superdorf and I are exposed.
I like how you're misconstruing me.

I said I believe you targeted Superdorf. There's no way for me to have found that out myself, Follower only gets to know the action, not who it was performed on. The basis for my belief was Persus claiming it and you agreeing with Persus. Persus doesn't confirm me much, or at all, afaik.

And yep, if the tactic backfires, the two of you might be exposed together. But if it suceeds, the two of you get a mislynch today and win. And the weakness of the tactic is also its strength, in that the two of you can back each other up. I only managed to catch the two of you by a lucky, almost random night-choice, then putting myself on the line, and waiting for other people to claim.

It's a smart gambit. I can respect that. I almost feel bad about wandering into the middle of it like this. Almost.
Quote
If I were a mafioso, I'd have done what you said, disown the roleblocking and pretend to be something else. But why would I just claim that I'm a roleblocker of all things publicly? I must be either a mad man of a mafioso walking into literal suicide, or...I'm actually a town roleblocker, as luck would have it.
Not sure why I'm replying to this, as you clearly know the answer, but:

In order to have your story be coherent with Superdorf's claim that he was roleblocked. And two out of five people with a consistent story are very likely to be believed by at least one other person, I'd say. In fact, as you were honest about who you targeted, your story worked with Persus' results, while Naturegirl's actions didn't directly involve you. You were just unlucky that I followed you. And even now, it's your word against mine for Persus and Naturegirl. Not a bad tactic at all.

I was the one to say that today is very possibly LyLo, and I could have just sit back and let town argue and lynched another townie without exposing myself or my scumbuddy. AT THE VERY LEAST, I could have roped someone other than scummy Superdorf with me.
Gosh. How very towny of you, pointing out a LyLo situation. Scum couldn't concieveably do such a thing. Instantly quoting this as part of your defence... I mean, come off it.

And would lynching another townie be so easy? Superdorf gave a sort of gut-read based OMGUS almost instantly, he was clearly cracking. But thanks to you "roleblocking" him, I looked like the one who nightkilled instead.
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Pooka

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Re: Vanilla Tea Mafia: Day Two: Nature or Nurture?
« Reply #276 on: August 29, 2019, 09:49:57 am »

Such wonderful wonderful vitriol! This is how Mafia is meant to be played. ^-^
We're at a point now where either NJW or Pooka must be lying, yes? Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, please; I'm curious to know what third options there are, if any.
I hope you personally don't see the option of myself being the liar as plausible. Notice that NJW's night actions list does not have any mentions of roleblocking being done, and certainly you know you were roleblocked, yes?

Just for the record... any statement beginning along the lines of "If I were mafia..." tends to be rife with WiFoM, 'cos by definition the only person who really truly knows how a given person would act as mafia is that very person.
It's more or less my attempt at saying "if I did what you say I did as mafia, then I screwed up." I haven't seen a better way to express it without the WIFOM kicking in.


Also, Naturegirl's claim of being a Loud Bodyguard fits with what Superdorf's saying that he knows she visited him. On another hand, now that I think about it, something is...off about that role claim. I know NJW is 100% scum, that leaves me to think about the possible scumbuddy, and ever since his post falsifying my own claim, the notion that she is in cahoots with him (the "NOT GOOD ENOUGH." post by NJW hinting at it) has become stronger...and I worry that she may not be a Bodyguard at all. I dunno, Bodyguard seems a pretty useless role for Mafia unless there was a vigilante around, which I doubt with these role claims. It could be possible that mafia got a bodyguard anyway, but that would shift the balance in favor of the town since the mafia has an unnecessary role.
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NJW2000

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Re: Vanilla Tea Mafia: Day Two: Nature or Nurture?
« Reply #277 on: August 29, 2019, 09:59:43 am »

Such wonderful wonderful vitriol! This is how Mafia is meant to be played. ^-^
We're at a point now where either NJW or Pooka must be lying, yes? Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, please; I'm curious to know what third options there are, if any.

I recieved a pm saying he watched someone last night. He said he roleblocked. I don't think there's anything in normal mafia that allows this state of affairs to come about, but you could always check the OP.

Note that Pooka being scum means that you're scum, as otherwise his behaviour would be rather confusing and you'd be lying about the roleblock. PPE: Pooka just said this.

In all honesty, I doubt the veracity of your sincerity here, but applaud your audacity.



See above
This post is absolutely wonderful. You're suspicious of Naturegirl's claim to be a bodyguard, because you have a "notion" she's my scumbuddy, and mafia don't need a bodyguard. So you doubt her roleclaim because you think she's mafia? What an overwhelmingly pointless consideration if she is mafia. What next, you think she's mafia because you doubt her roleclaim? :P



It's well past my bedtime now, but I'll respond to stuff in the morning, hopefully.
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Persus13

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Re: Vanilla Tea Mafia: Day Two: Nature or Nurture?
« Reply #278 on: August 29, 2019, 10:10:20 am »

Also Naturegirl, I need you to fullclaim your role.
Full Claim?
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Ooh, this would explain that little notification I got... excellent!
Mm, does this claim affect any of our other speculations at all? I don't think it really does.
The main thing it will impact is my decision on who to vote.

Naturegirl: Thank you for answering one of my questions. Please answer the other. Who do you plan on voting today?
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Persus13

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Re: Vanilla Tea Mafia: Day Two: Nature or Nurture?
« Reply #279 on: August 29, 2019, 10:27:38 am »

Also wow you guys need to chill, cause there's a lot of rambling and misreading going on in all of y'all's posts.

Right now the person you need to convince isn't the person you're accusing, its me.
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Superdorf

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Re: Vanilla Tea Mafia: Day Two: Nature or Nurture?
« Reply #280 on: August 29, 2019, 10:30:59 am »

I hope you personally don't see the option of myself being the liar as plausible. Notice that NJW's night actions list does not have any mentions of roleblocking being done, and certainly you know you were roleblocked, yes?
Ayup, my hands are just about tied here... by my own messagings, NJW's scum.

NJW should have a scumbuddy tho... I dunno who yet. Either Naturegirl or Persus, most likely? Unfortunately I'm having trouble reading either of them: Persus seems like rock-solid town, but I suspect I'd see him that way whatever he rolled up; Naturegirl came off as kinda scummy early D1, but has proved superficially useful since.

Also wow you guys need to chill, cause there's a lot of rambling and misreading going on in all of y'all's posts.

Right now the person you need to convince isn't the person you're accusing, its me.
I do ramble a bit don't I? I am, alas, amiably aimless.
We do indeed need to convince you, tho. You or Naturegirl. Whichever of you's town.
Just outa curiosity... where do you stand now?
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Naturegirl1999

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Re: Vanilla Tea Mafia: Day Two: Nature or Nurture?
« Reply #281 on: August 29, 2019, 10:42:26 am »

Also Naturegirl, I need you to fullclaim your role.
Full Claim?
Loud Bodyguard
Ooh, this would explain that little notification I got... excellent!
Mm, does this claim affect any of our other speculations at all? I don't think it really does.
I am unsure, don’t fully get NJW’s post, and haven’t decided yet. But I’m thinking of voting NJW because of this
quote author=Persus13 link=topic=174411.msg8016983#msg8016983 date=1567008795]
Everyone: Thoughts on a mass claim? We know Superdorf can't have done the NK if he's telling the truth. Nature claims to have protected Superdorf. Pooka's action is unclaimed, but I have reason to believe he didn't night kill last night.

Assuming everyone so far is telling the truth today, NJW had to have committed the night kill.
[/wuote]
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Pooka

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Re: Vanilla Tea Mafia: Day Two: Nature or Nurture?
« Reply #282 on: August 29, 2019, 11:03:32 am »

Reread the bit you quoted, it's clear that I was talking about Superdorf's response at the start of D2 after I presented the case on him at the end of D1.
Okay. Let me do just that.

So I just read that post again and I see your angle. I'll leave it up to Superdorf to explain it.


I mean... I can see that you might not have expressed yourself clearly by accident, but I didn't automatically search for the "what gives?" question a page back when I saw the response starting "the reason". I thought you were providing a reason for the block you just claimed to have made. In the same paragraph. In the previous sentence. And to be fair, that is exactly what you were doing. Just in reply to something you didn't quote, a page back.

So you were replying to Superdorf, but in a completely normal way. I see.
Indeed I was. I forgot that not everyone has 50 posts per page in their settings.


In your favor, that is, scum.
Very helpful.

Quote from: Pooka
Actually come to think of it, I like how you claim I watched Superdorf, but only after Persus came out saying that I did visit Superdorf. This way, you would have a leg for your theory to stand on, since someone else can confirm I visited the dude, and then you managed to spin it up into a mutual lying story as some form of desperation attack or something.

I like how you're misconstruing me.

I said I believe you targeted Superdorf. There's no way for me to have found that out myself, Follower only gets to know the action, not who it was performed on. The basis for my belief was Persus claiming it and you agreeing with Persus. Persus doesn't confirm me much, or at all, afaik.
Okay, so you "believe" Persus that I targeted Superdorf. But that doesn't make the whole idea of what I said any different. You waited until Persus said I visited Superdorf, so you can have your "both Superdorf and Pooka lied about the roleblocking" theory.

And yep, if the tactic backfires, the two of you might be exposed together. But if it suceeds, the two of you get a mislynch today and win. And the weakness of the tactic is also its strength, in that the two of you can back each other up. I only managed to catch the two of you by a lucky, almost random night-choice, then putting myself on the line, and waiting for other people to claim.

It's a smart gambit. I can respect that. I almost feel bad about wandering into the middle of it like this. Almost.
This gambit is too much risk for too little gain. Why do all of this mental gymnastics as scum? I could have "watched" someone else and not do the roleblocking claim. What it would have come down to is Naturegirl being suspected for her play and possibly lynched. Game over. Scummy Superdorf and I already had the necessary ammo to win the game. Gambits are done when you're in a tight position and you must think of something to tip the scale in your favor, pronto. This couldn't have been it.

Quote
If I were a mafioso, I'd have done what you said, disown the roleblocking and pretend to be something else. But why would I just claim that I'm a roleblocker of all things publicly? I must be either a mad man of a mafioso walking into literal suicide, or...I'm actually a town roleblocker, as luck would have it.
Not sure why I'm replying to this, as you clearly know the answer, but:

In order to have your story be coherent with Superdorf's claim that he was roleblocked. And two out of five people with a consistent story are very likely to be believed by at least one other person, I'd say. In fact, as you were honest about who you targeted, your story worked with Persus' results, while Naturegirl's actions didn't directly involve you. You were just unlucky that I followed you. And even now, it's your word against mine for Persus and Naturegirl. Not a bad tactic at all.
It's in my favor as scum to muddy the waters, not to build up consistent stories. Here's what building up a consistent story get us: being the spotlight of your scumteam theory. If the waters were muddied, nobody would have coherent stories to rely on, all they'd have is their separate night actions.

I was the one to say that today is very possibly LyLo, and I could have just sit back and let town argue and lynched another townie without exposing myself or my scumbuddy. AT THE VERY LEAST, I could have roped someone other than scummy Superdorf with me.
Gosh. How very towny of you, pointing out a LyLo situation. Scum couldn't concieveably do such a thing. Instantly quoting this as part of your defence... I mean, come off it.

And would lynching another townie be so easy? Superdorf gave a sort of gut-read based OMGUS almost instantly, he was clearly cracking. But thanks to you "roleblocking" him, I looked like the one who nightkilled instead.
"I like how you're misconstruing me." in your own words.

The LyLo thing is in reference to the current game situation: scum is possibly one lynch away. Since you proposed Superdorf and I as the scumteam, it would indeed be the last day; all we need to get in is one lynch. Yes, Superdorf started with his bad vibes about you, but it wouldn't have necessarily held on to the end of the day to lynch him.

----
Now, while scrolling through the previous posts, I caught something even more interesting in light of Day 2.

I myself have a hunch that there is an SK.

What happened to that hunch, NJW? It's a very specific hunch, and you don't seem to exhibit it to-Day.


Persus:
Also wow you guys need to chill, cause there's a lot of rambling and misreading going on in all of y'all's posts.

Right now the person you need to convince isn't the person you're accusing, its me.
Alright, you have my attention now. Whose side are you leaning on? Who is more convincing in your eyes?
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Superdorf

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Re: Vanilla Tea Mafia: Day Two: Nature or Nurture?
« Reply #283 on: August 29, 2019, 11:22:58 am »

Reread the bit you quoted, it's clear that I was talking about Superdorf's response at the start of D2 after I presented the case on him at the end of D1.
Okay. Let me do just that.

So I just read that post again and I see your angle. I'll leave it up to Superdorf to explain it.

Hm what? Oh.

Look, I was kinda cracking that evening. I'd accidentally lynched a townie, my night-inspection had failed, and Naturegirl had just made a claim that really really worried me at the time, 'cos I wasn't thinking in LyLo terms yet and I thought I'd just ousted a doctor who could've saved all our hides tonight!

And on top of... all of that, NJW was out for my neck. Now I don't respond to pressure well. I try to hide it, but I just don't respond to pressure well. Me getting lynched means a town loss-- any townie getting lynched means a town loss-- so NJW's pressure scared me. It did! You're right to have spotted that!

When I get panicky, I make stream-of-consciousness posts. I dunno why. Helps clear my mind, I guess. So I threw my maybe-reactionary-gut-read-thing out there, acknowledged to act on it would be a bad idea, and moved on. I wasn't gonna touch it!

...And then NJW, in the process of leaping at my throat, gave me hard mechanical evidence of his own scumminess. That weird "hunch" of mine has proven right, it's proven useful-- in that it apparently helped incite NJW to start flailing about-- and, at this point, it's proven unnecessary. I have a much, much better case now; all I need to do is... somehow show y'all it's real. Which I... really have no idea how to do. I'm bad at this part.

Yay me?  ::)
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Persus13

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Re: Vanilla Tea Mafia: Day Two: Nature or Nurture?
« Reply #284 on: August 29, 2019, 11:54:57 am »

I find NJW's claim convenient to shift the narrative away from him having to be responsible for the scumkill, and finding two other targets to push as an alternative instead. However, that doesn't mean his claim is false. Anything further information about my opinion on the matter could possibly affect how people try to convince me, so I'd prefer not to say anything more.

Pooka: Is your suspicions that Natruegirl is NJW's teammate grounded in anything more concrete? Especially considering that unless Superdorf and Nature are on the same team, we know she visited Superdorf last night.
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