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[Screech9791]

...so do we know anything about the weapons they're be using?

I don't think we have any clue what they'll actually field, so we'll just have to wait until the first mission is complete before we can analyze stol-er... retrieved alien weapons.

[10ebbor10]

Though first: Ebbor, presumably we've been reactived after the first alien raid(s) since it's functionally impossible to detect something like this coming in from space before they're entering the atmosphere to start raiding...so do we know anything about the weapons they're be using?

The XCOM project is in response to alien raids, but there has been no real contact from which you can derive much information yet. Just a bunch of probing stuff, with the occasional scorch mark.

That said, I won't object if you take a guess at what weapon the Ethereals use and counter that, just as I wouldn't be upset if the Ethereals came up with an anti-missile thing to counter your jets. You're allowed a small amount of genre awareness.

[Screech9791]

That said, I won't object if you take a guess at what weapon the Ethereals use and counter that, just as I wouldn't be upset if the Ethereals came up with an anti-missile thing to counter your jets. You're allowed a small amount of genre awareness.

I'm going to stay on the side of caution in terms of researching counters to alien equipment, and not waste resources on potential counters to things the aliens might not even make potential designs for in the first place.

[Happerry]

Here's a few suggestions for revisions.

The Killing Sky
This annex to the main Killing House facility is not meant to train our infantry, but instead is a high resolution, high accuracy simulation center for the training of our pilots. Utilizing a mega-computer cluster and gryoscopic simulation pods to simulate G-Forces, the Killing Sky collates all available data on opposing unidentified flying objects to allow our pilots to engage in the most high fidelity simulations possible. Thus, having learned to fight and die against the menace from beyond the sky in simulation, they'll be more able to do so in real life. As more engagements happen, and more data is collected, and more enemy UFOs encountered, the Killing Sky will of course update itself to represent the most modern available simulation profile of the foe.
(TLDR : Train Better Pilots.)

Chinese Air Sweatshop
Being advanced is good, but at some levels just throwing more hands at things will help. On those levels, the huge Chinese population is tapped as a resource to produce useful gear for the construction, maintenance, and use of aircraft and aircraft supporting facilities. Unlike the current sources of parts tapped into by XCOM, these mass production facilities will purely be used by and for X-COM, allowing the Extraterrestrial Combat Force to put more aircraft into the sky. And that will let XCOM send more UFOs into the hard embrace of the earth.
(TLDR : Get at least one more VP.)

Lethal Entry Axioms of Doom Entering Reality
It is expected that fighting the aliens is going to be a high casualty kind of war. This isn't going to be a nice neat fight where people can sit back in air conditioned offices and blow their enemy up with a drone. As such, we'll probably need more manpower sooner then later. To get that extra manpower, we're planning on infiltrating agents into several national militaries (with said militaries' agreements of course) where they can approach identified individuals with high talent just finishing passing through their original training or veteran individuals considering re-enlisting for another go and see if we can get them to agree to serve their country in more exotic fashions and areas. The L.E.A.D.E.R program will thus get us more soldiers to deploy against the great enemy.
(TLDR : Get at least one more UP)

--- O --- O ---

I want to highly suggest that if we don't do the chinese airship factory suggestion, we do another one that gets us at least one more VP, because right now we only have three. If we can get up to four that's two skyranger+raven pairs, allowing us to hit two landing sites at once, instead of either having to send a skyranger without escort or having to send a raven without a followup as we'd have to do now.

The Sky Eye seems neat and useful, though at that rate we're also going to want to do something for more EP soon.

[Madman198237]

XCOM Requests for Deployment of Surface to Air Missile Assets
Right now, the world is pretty much at peace. Major nations aren't really using their massive air defense networks for much except tracking civilian flights and the occasional UFO entering the atmosphere and descending towards hapless civilians. We think that they'll be quite happy if we tell them where we think UFOs are going to appear and ask them to pretty please shoot it down with a SAM missile. Even if the SAM missiles can't shoot them down due to countermeasures or dodging ability or whatever, a SAM is still a ferociously fast and powerful missile that they will have to evade, costing them time, speed, and countermeasures (if they have consumable countermeasures, anyway). Also, this forces aliens not to operate anywhere near large military positions and forces them to follow fewer, more specific flight paths if they wish to avoid the worst of the shooting.

Using preexisting networks and making it the local militaries responsible for shooting makes us basically an intelligence asset instead of a command asset, meaning that we should have little trouble in getting them to help defend their citizens from extraterrestrial invasion.

As it says, we can shoot down some aliens once in a while (surface-to-air missiles are far faster than any aircraft, and our interceptors can pose a credible threat to UFOs as-is), but most importantly we can prevent them from operating how and where they want to, and also make it more difficult for them to escape.

[Chiefwaffles]

Okay besides the fact that I really don't like the sweatshop flavor in our top-secret last-line-of-defense protect-the-world-from-aliens high-tech project, I'm not sure that we could get points that easily in revisions. If we can then we of course should, but it feels iffy balance-wise unless Ebbor tells/hints us otherwise.

Anyways, have revisions!
Site Bombing
In cases of a retreat by our soldiers, or alien activity that we cannot counter, we are establishing an intelligence-sharing program with sponsors so they can send their airforce to bomb an area with alien presence with extreme prejudice.

Bombing is not expected to be precise, and is to be done from high-altitude to avoid weapons fire from the aliens on the ground. While individual bombs may not be great at say piercing alien armoring or whatever, an extreme number of bombs in a very short time period should do the trick.
Collateral damage is to be expected, and we doubt we'll be able to recover any alien materials from the aftermath. In most cases we can excuse the collateral damage with the fact that anyone in danger close radius would have likely died to/been abducted by the aliens if we didn't do anything. Which would probably be a worse fate. We can also reassure ourselves by knowing that the bombing will severely impact the whatever the aliens hope to gain from their ground missions. Though we'll try, we don't expect to get our sponsors to agree to bomb more dense population areas that have not been evacuated.

In summary, if our operatives retreat or can't get there in the first place, we will bomb everything in the general vicinity to hell. We won't get any benefits, but neither will the aliens (or at least theirs will be decreased).


Sleeper Cells
Based on prior alien sightings to the XCOM project's formation, we can establish a likely list of places they'll appear at in the future. This list is unfortunately way too large for us to do anything about it conventionally. But unconventionality is something we're going to have to get used to.
A combination of our own personnel and those borrowed from the geographically relevant sponsors lets us put sleeper agents in many towns/suburbs/cities/villages/whatever that are most at risk of alien presence. We can't afford to equip them or give them special training, but we can tell them what to look for, we can tell them when aliens are going to arrive nearby, and we can tell them what to do. They can't be in every possible area, but hopefully they'll at least be in range to drive to the site in question before their duties become impossible.

Sleeper Agents are not meant to fight. Instead, their goal is to disrupt the aliens' objectives and save civilian lives/subdue possible panic. Their only piece of equipment is some form of location-relevant (as to not stand out) secure communications line that we can reach them with, and the main use for this is so we can tell them if there's an alien within their operations range. They'll also have as much authority as we/our sponsor can give them without expending too many resources/making them stand out too much.
When warned of impending aliens, a Sleeper Agent's first priority is evacuating civilians or anything that the aliens may potentially be after. Their second priority is to send us intelligence about what the aliens are deploying and, if we're sending our own assets, where we should start our engagement from. Their third priority is continued protection of civilians and to get the hell away so they can live another day.

This is mostly useful for decreasing the effects of alien activity that we can't afford to send dedicated forces to counter. And to a lesser extent, providing some hopefully useful preliminary intelligence to our soldiers arriving at alien activity sites.


StimPack
The StimPack is a scaringly large perfectly normal-sized single-use auto-injector full of a drug cocktail. Simply hold to your arm, neck, or leg (against bare skin or through fabric) and press the button and ignore the brief mild stab of pain. The perfectly legal drugs will immediately enter your bloodstream where they will temporarily enhance your fighting ability, even through wounds.

Drugs used in the StimPack are mostly just a unique combination of existing stuff. Those under its influence should be able to fight better in every way and be able to ignore (but still realize) what would normally be disabling wounds. We've been careful to avoid making it too addictive -- at the current level our operatives should be able to avoid any addictive effects unless they mainline the stuff constantly for hours. Which, we would like to clarify, we do not recommend at all. A crash is expected as a natural side effect after the effects wear off, but by then it should have done its job and the affected operative can recover for a few minutes before returning to duty.

Ultimately we leave the exact usage of StimPacks to our soldiers, though we monitor their intake and supply as to avoid addiction. We expect the main uses will be for whenever our soldiers need an edge to win a current engagement, need increased awareness, in desperate fighting situations, and to allow people with bad wounds to fend off attackers/retreat before crashing to get to a safe place where those wounds can be managed.

"Sky Eye" Recon Drone (1): Chiefwaffles
The Killing Sky (0):
Chinese Air Sweatshop (0):
Lethal Entry Axioms of Doom Entering Reality (0):
XCOM Requests for Deployment of Surface to Air Missile Assets (0):
Site Bombing (0):
Sleeper Cells (0):
StimPack (1): Chiefwaffles

For me it's Sky Eye > StimPack > Site Bombing.
Not a big fan of something as ambiguous as just training better pilots, and while it'd be very nice I don't think we'll be able to increase Points in revisions.

Sky Eye has great synergy with the turret, and the StimPack gives us medical experience for the Medipack and is just cool/vaguely unique kind of in general. Site Bombing is good from a strategical viewpoint of denying the aliens whatever they get from successful missions. Or at least decreasing what they get.

[Madman198237]

"Sky Eye" Recon Drone (2): Chiefwaffles, Madman
The Killing Sky (0):
Chinese Air Sweatshop (0):
Lethal Entry Axioms of Doom Entering Reality (0):
XCOM Requests for Deployment of Surface to Air Missile Assets (1): Madman
Site Bombing (0):
Sleeper Cells (0):
StimPack (1): Chiefwaffles

I am set on getting the Sky Eye, I am very ambiguous as to the second revision though I do not like using addictive chemicals with our soldiers. Also note that using such chemicals will only dubiously improve fighting ability---historically nations that have tried this (Nazi Germany in particular) find that it results in debilitated soldiers if you allow extended use, and that it can result in damage to everything from discipline to proper tactics. Painkilling definitely helps though results in more and more serious casualties when the mission is over (soldiers who cannot feel as much pain do not fear pain as much as they should), but drugging soldiers and not STRICTLY controlling when the substance is issued and when and how it can be deployed is... very bad.

If it was more of a "administer painkiller/adrenaline (aka epinephrine)/stimulant to save life" that'd be much more of a proper basis for a medical system AND also more palatable as a combat-useful tool, at least to my particularly harsh opinion on the subject.

[Chiefwaffles]

The soldiers get one dose if it's equipped, and we can control it between engagements if there's risk of addiction/long-term effects. Everything in it is worded to prevent addiction while not trying way too hard to make a superdrug with zero drawbacks.

It's based on this. Sure, we don't have a Muton berserker's glands to get chemicals from, but XCOM Combat Stims don't have any crash, withdrawal, addiction, or otherwise negative effects.

EDIT: Basically, I want to do something more unique this turn. The StimPack isn't great for it but it's better than all the other revisions proposed. I don't want this game to just be a retelling of XCOM's tech tree, but with asking sponsors for more help and a few variations here and there. I want to take advantage of the fact that this is an Arms Race.

EDIT2 (sorry): Also for clarification, for obvious balance reasons I'm not expecting the dose to last an entire mission. More-so a matter of minutes. I didn't mention it though because I thought/think it best to leave the specifics up to Ebbor.

[Happerry]

I'm not sure that we could get points that easily in revisions. If we can then we of course should, but it feels iffy balance-wise unless Ebbor tells/hints us otherwise.

Let's ask then.

10Ebbor10 is it possible to gain more points in revisions and/or designs?

Also a non-chinese sweatshop version for different fluff.

Germanic Manufacturing Sites
Currently X-Com is receiving top of the line gear sourced from across the world to meet XCOM's unique needs. This is all well and good, but there's a certain inefficiency innate to having to source gear from across the world and get it delivered. With a few new and dedicated equipment manufacturing sites, building both airframes, airframe gear, and the needed gear to support airframes and generally operate hangers and do maintenance, ran by and solely supplying X-COM, we could afford to support a few more planes, allowing us to be more vigorous in the defense of the earth.
(TLDR : Gain at least one more VP.)

[10ebbor10]

10Ebbor10 is it possible to gain more points in revisions and/or designs?

Designs, yes.

Revision is a lot trickier. You better have a good roll and a decent explanation. For example, if you've just invented a friendly AI computer, then placing that AI computer in charge of factories could be done with a revision.

Site Bombing
In cases of a retreat by our soldiers, or alien activity that we cannot counter, we are establishing an intelligence-sharing program with sponsors so they can send their airforce to bomb an area with alien presence with extreme prejudice.

Bombing is not expected to be precise, and is to be done from high-altitude to avoid weapons fire from the aliens on the ground. While individual bombs may not be great at say piercing alien armoring or whatever, an extreme number of bombs in a very short time period should do the trick.
Collateral damage is to be expected, and we doubt we'll be able to recover any alien materials from the aftermath. In most cases we can excuse the collateral damage with the fact that anyone in danger close radius would have likely died to/been abducted by the aliens if we didn't do anything. Which would probably be a worse fate. We can also reassure ourselves by knowing that the bombing will severely impact the whatever the aliens hope to gain from their ground missions. Though we'll try, we don't expect to get our sponsors to agree to bomb more dense population areas that have not been evacuated.

In summary, if our operatives retreat or can't get there in the first place, we will bomb everything in the general vicinity to hell. We won't get any benefits, but neither will the aliens (or at least theirs will be decreased).

I'm not giving you an option to completely invalidate all alien ground advancements.

This falls under the same conceit that prevents aliens from nuking you from orbit.

[Aseaheru]

Project "Requires Larger Gun"
 With pessimistic expectations for what our troops are likely to engage and where they are likely to do so, Project RLG was initiated to give the average trooper weaponry able to defeat most opponents. The project consists of two items, the General Purpose Rifle-Launcher, Ballistic(GPR-L B, or "Gerpel Bee", apparently) and the "BE Shotgun.
 The GPR-L B is a comparatively standard bullpup rifle, consisting of a large bore-intermediate caliber select fire rifle and an intergrated underbarrel grenade launcher, with integrated holographic optics and camera system. Inspiration is taken from sources such as ASh-12.7, the QTS-11, and assorted battle rifles.
 The BE Shotgun, on the other hand, is an almost direct clone of the KS-23K semiautomatic, box fed, 23mm shotgun "carbine", the main differences being a change in caliber to one based off of 25mm cannon rounds(and barrels) provided by our host nation.

 Because Ballistic Best Weapon, large calibers allow us to theoretically have fun ammunition types such as ones with capacitors to shock enemies instead of, yaknow, going up to them and stunning them, grenade launchers for everyone because of utility(Who doesnt want to be able to blow up a muton equivalent, shotgun a pile of sectoid knockoffs, or use smoke grenades from the same weapon?), and bullpups because we will be inside alot, atleast if we want to capture their shit.

[Chiefwaffles]

Site Bombing
stuff

I'm not giving you an option to completely invalidate all alien ground advancements.

This falls under the same conceit that prevents aliens from nuking you from orbit.

That's completely fair. I thought that the aliens valid counters -- shooting the bombers out of the sky, operating in areas where collateral damage is too high, being more stealthy, finishing their mission before bombers arrive, etc. etc. etc. -- would make it a valid design, but ultimately for obvious reasons you know more about their potential theoretical counters to this than me.
Oh well. Makes it easier for me to vote, at least! Thanks for the warning.


Anyways, here's another potential revision:
Training: Engineer
We're already going to be deploying turrets. We may be deploying drones already too. And in the near future, who knows what else we'll design that could use in-field maintenance, control, and oversight?

The Engineer is a lighter specialization trained in these matters. Ultimately training is pretty simple -- we take candidates who show the most potential in technology/engineering/etc., give them advanced briefings on the tech they'll be using, and give them some more time in the Killing House with tech.

Gear is straightforward. While of course still trained in combat, they will use lighter weapons like SMGs and Personal Defense Weapons. Like the P90. P90s are cool and need to be used more. Other equipment is on the lighter side, without making them practically naked in combat.
This is to free up space and weight for the engineer to carry deployable tech (like the Guardian, and potentially the Sky Eye) as well as the rest of their kit. Their kit covering a control tablet to interface with our technology for control and field software modifications, and a small toolkit for performing repairs and modifications to hardware on the field.
Engineers will be an add-on to existing squads, with the exact number varying depending on how much oversight/maintenance/etc. our deployed technology needs. Though most likely 1(-2) engineers.

Overall, it's mostly focusing our tech-oversight needs on one specialization that's some degree better equipped to deal with them. They should be much better at getting the most out of our tech, whatever it is.

"Sky Eye" Recon Drone (2): Chiefwaffles, Madman
The Killing Sky (0):
Chinese Air Sweatshop (0):
Lethal Entry Axioms of Doom Entering Reality (0):
XCOM Requests for Deployment of Surface to Air Missile Assets (1): Madman
Sleeper Cells (0):
StimPack (0):
Germanic Manufacturing Sites (0):
Project "Requires Larger Gun" (0):
Training: Engineer (1): Chiefwaffles

Engineer would help a lot with our current set up. Even if we don't do the Sky Eye/any other tech in revisions, a dedicated combat engineer to handle our tech now and to be expanded for other duties as we have better tech in the future would help a lot.

I'll probably make two more revisions -- one to allow us to send operatives through sponsor-provided vehicles to allow sending more troops somewhere without using VP at the cost of a much higher response time, and something to help out in air.

I'm worried about having 3 VP. If the aliens hit more than two places we're screwed. It's too late to upgrade VP unless someone has a genius revision idea, too. So anyone with a revision that solves that would probably get my vote.

[Happerry]

I guess we were both right about revising more points.

Hmm.

I do like the engineer, but I kind of want to spend a design on that, not a revision, because if we're going down the turret/drone/HWP/SHIV path like we seem to be doing it'd be good to have a good specialist in such things, and a design would be better then a revision for that. I think I'll throw in for the Sky Eye, because a scout drone sounds useful, and the XCOM Requests for Deployment of Surface to Air Missile Assets because if we can't get more VP to get more interceptors, then having another way to shoot down enemy UFOs is an acceptable stand in for having more interceptors.

"Sky Eye" Recon Drone (3): Chiefwaffles, Madman, Happerry
The Killing Sky (0):
Lethal Entry Axioms of Doom Entering Reality (0):
XCOM Requests for Deployment of Surface to Air Missile Assets (2): Madman, Happerry
Sleeper Cells (0):
StimPack (0):
Project "Requires Larger Gun" (0):
Training: Engineer (1): Chiefwaffles

[Aseaheru]

Yeah, thats sorta my view on many of these, they should be designs.

"Sky Eye" Recon Drone (3): Chiefwaffles, Madman, Happerry
The Killing Sky (0):
Lethal Entry Axioms of Doom Entering Reality (0):
XCOM Requests for Deployment of Surface to Air Missile Assets (2): Madman, Happerry
Sleeper Cells (0):
StimPack (0):
Project "Requires Larger Gun" (1):AseaHeru
Training: Engineer (1): Chiefwaffles

[Chiefwaffles]

Eh. Engineer is small in scope for now and can be expanded in the future as our reliance on tech grows.

The problem is that I just don't see us as having time for something as non-essential as the engineer with our designs in the foreseeable future. If we don't get it in a revision, we're just not going to get it at all.