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[hector13]

I hope that last sentence made sense, there were a lot of negatives heh.

Basically I don't know if you're piratejoe's partner and you're throwing him under the bus to gain towncred, or that piratejoe is bussing his partner heydude in an effort to make heydude look more townie if piratejoe gets lynched.

[heydude6]

How do we know for a fact the mafia have either a framer or a consigliere?

Now that's an interesting question, actually. If piratejoe really were the spy, he would know if someone besides Pavellius or heydude was visited by mafia. Heydude hasn't claimed being rb'd, so we can deduce that either heydude is lying scum or the consort targeted Pavellius or there isn't one. That would mean Leodanny's claimed roleblock was by a town escort. That's impossible if piratejoe is a spy, as there is only one non-investigative townie still alive, which means piratejoe is lying.

Okay Iceytea, the first paragraph of your last response is just nonsense, so I’m going to break it down point by point to explain why.

If piratejoe really were the spy, he would know if someone besides Pavellius or heydude was visited by mafia.

If piratejoe was spy and he wasn’t lying, then he would only know that those two people were visited by the mafia. He wouldn’t know about some third secret person. Your scenario only makes sense if a spy piratejoe decided to lie about who the mafia visited for for whatever reason which is frankly ridiculous.

It doesn’t really matter though, Joe is lying since his testimony says I’m the mafia which I know I’m not.

the consort targeted Pavellius or there isn't one.

The mafia consort wouldn’t target Pavellius and then have the Mafioso kill him. It would be a waste of their action. It would only make sense if he was a Vig planning to shoot someone important, but the Vig can’t shoot day 1.

That would mean Leodanny's claimed roleblock was by a town escort. That’s impossible if Piratejoe is a spy

The escort who did the roleblock could have been Pavellius. We already know that he’s an escort and no one else has claimed to be roleblocked so it makes sense that he was the one who did it. An escort still gets to use their ability if they’re nightkilled.


With all of this sketchy information you use it to conclude that piratejoe is the mafia and honestly I don’t see it. Your response only makes sense when seen as a poorly made attempt to bus him which is why I’m voting IceyTea. Plus if you were town, you wouldn’t have accepted Piratejoe’s testimony so easily. You should have been able to counterclaim, or question him but you didn’t.


To address the ninja:

What makes you say I trust you?

That you believe me without question when I say my action failed due to self-target (an unconfirmable claim), and thus assume I couldn't have performed the nightkill.

I believed you without question as well. You knew you were transported and at the time I thought you only got the PM when you targeted the transporters target. Since you got the PM, you had to have targeted me which naturally would lead to a self-target. As you can see,  your “uncomfirmable” claim was rather easily confirmed. I think you’re the mafia, but I don’t think you’re the mafioso.

[IcyTea31]

You were transported to target yourself.

Here's the problem: what if I targeted Pavellius? The transport wouldn't change that. I'm confirmed as having been transported, but nobody can confirm as to whether I did what I say I did.

If piratejoe was spy and he wasn’t lying, then he would only know that those two people were visited by the mafia. He wouldn’t know about some third secret person.

He would know if Leodanny was visited by a consort, in which case nobody would have visited you. Lies work like that, they don't add up.

The mafia consort wouldn’t target Pavellius and then have the Mafioso kill him. It would be a waste of their action. It would only make sense if he was a Vig planning to shoot someone important, but the Vig can’t shoot day 1.

Pavellius could have RB'd the mafioso. But yes, it'd be absurd, though not impossible.

The escort who did the roleblock could have been Pavellius. We already know that he’s an escort and no one else has claimed to be roleblocked so it makes sense that he was the one who did it. An escort still gets to use their ability if they’re nightkilled.

Now that's true, however. Unvote.

You should have been able to counterclaim, or question him but you didn’t.

I don't need to counterclaim him, though you might want to. I'm the investigator*. If piratejoe is the spy, what's your role, heydude6?

You knew you were transported and at the time I thought you only got the PM when you targeted the transporters target.

At the time you thought so. Since then, it's been explained that you get the PM regardless of who you target. I'm starting to question whether people don't know how the transporter works or are acting dumb to support their arguments?


*Saying that my ability "failed" was a way to hide it and see if someone else claims an investigative role. My results were that my target could be an investigator or consigliere, which is why I asked for the transporter's other target immediately, as I suspected a self-target.

Now that I'm out and assuming heydude claims an investigative role, the other unconfirmed townie should know their own counterclaim to be scum for sure, be that piratejoe or hector.

piratejoe (1) - hector13
IcyTea31 (1) - heydude6
heydude6 (1) - IcyTea31

Not Voting: piratejoe, heydude6, Leodanny

Day ends at 2:00 AM, on Monday (February 4th) FST
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[piratejoe]

I made no assumption regarding the transporter roleblocking anyone. They both targeted each other, and they were both transported to target themselves, meaning they both have actions that don't kill, else one of 'em would be dead.

I also pointed out I was by no means cleared in anyone else's eyes after I voted you, because I sat in the privileged position of apparently being the only town member unmolested in the night. Thus, with Leodanny transporting IcyTea and heydude, and neither of them being dead, the only person capable of killing is me or piratejoe.

The way you said it made me believe you thought it role blocked them, not that they targeted each other, that was my bad. Regardless, considering the fact I know for a fact I'm town, you have to be scum, and your ally is Heydude6.

The only claimed roleblock was on Leodanny last night, which is a significant difference.

How do we know for a fact the mafia have either a framer or a consigliere?

I wasn't role blocked, you obviously weren't role blocked seeing how you killed Pavellius, I'm quite sure Icy would have claimed if he was role blocked...To be honest, Heydude could actually be a Consort if he actually accidentally targeted himself due to the transporter...

Right, you found the scum team but you're not voting for either of them. You also waited until the latter half of D2 to inform us of that, despite it being pretty clear what happened between Leodanny/IcyTea/heydude.

This is the easiest claim to make given the information we have available, and it conveniently allows you to either "clear" your scum partner or mislead the town into thinking the townie is your scum partner. Notable in that it allows you to significantly change your reads list without too much hassle, too.

Equally so, I'm still bottom of the list, despite you apparently having incontrovertible proof (from your perspective) that heydude is scum, 'cause he visited himself and scum visited heydude.

I'm going to address the last part of this first, you do realize that, with the info available to me and that I have stated, you are the Mafioso, and their for the killing roll. As for why I took so long is quite simple, I thought that, considering there was already a spy, and that spy died, it would make people believe that I might be lying about my role and just dismiss me as an easy scum lynch when I'm in fact town. If there is an issue with that, or if thats against the meta of this game, well, it's my second game, sorry. Lastly, how is this the easiest claim to make? The other spy is dead, the chances of there being yet another spy are less then you think. If I was trying to mislead people I would have claimed literally anything but the role that died yesterday.

Scum are also making strategies, using the information available of them to influence town to make a poor decision.

Case in point: piratejoe. He knows he messed up by not realizing earlier that only he or I could have performed the nightkill, now he's trying to dig his way out of that hole by implicating someone else with the information available in the thread.

I mean, it wasn't really a realization earlier that 'only you or I could have night killed' and more I didn't have time to actually be here for the latter half of the day up until yesterday. Still, I feel like mentioning that, I actually stated a plausible role, you have yet to do such a thing, and honestly, the argument of 'I don't want to have the mafia come after me' doesn't count at this point as we are in a Lynch or Lose situation. Anyway, hector13 nothing personal, you already know my reasons.

[IcyTea31]

and you're throwing him under the bus to gain towncred, or that piratejoe is bussing his partner heydude

Bussing: the act of a mafia member voting against their partner, so as to distance themselves from them and appear townish.
Towncred: town credibility, how likely it is that players believe you to be town, absent any hard evidence. Gained by performing (seemingly) pro-town acts.

[hector13]

You were transported to target yourself.

Here's the problem: what if I targeted Pavellius? The transport wouldn't change that. I'm confirmed as having been transported, but nobody can confirm as to whether I did what I say I did.

Well I made a bit of a silly mistake then.

You didn't visit Pavellius.

piratejoe

The only claimed roleblock was on Leodanny last night, which is a significant difference.

How do we know for a fact the mafia have either a framer or a consigliere?

I wasn't role blocked, you obviously weren't role blocked seeing how you killed Pavellius, I'm quite sure Icy would have claimed if he was role blocked...To be honest, Heydude could actually be a Consort if he actually accidentally targeted himself due to the transporter...

I know, that was my point.

Right, you found the scum team but you're not voting for either of them. You also waited until the latter half of D2 to inform us of that, despite it being pretty clear what happened between Leodanny/IcyTea/heydude.

This is the easiest claim to make given the information we have available, and it conveniently allows you to either "clear" your scum partner or mislead the town into thinking the townie is your scum partner. Notable in that it allows you to significantly change your reads list without too much hassle, too.

Equally so, I'm still bottom of the list, despite you apparently having incontrovertible proof (from your perspective) that heydude is scum, 'cause he visited himself and scum visited heydude.

I'm going to address the last part of this first, you do realize that, with the info available to me and that I have stated, you are the Mafioso, and their for the killing roll.

Yes, because I've pointed that out a number of times already :p

As for why I took so long is quite simple, I thought that, considering there was already a spy, and that spy died, it would make people believe that I might be lying about my role and just dismiss me as an easy scum lynch when I'm in fact town. If there is an issue with that, or if thats against the meta of this game, well, it's my second game, sorry. Lastly, how is this the easiest claim to make? The other spy is dead, the chances of there being yet another spy are less then you think. If I was trying to mislead people I would have claimed literally anything but the role that died yesterday.

If you are what role you say you are, you don't worry about it because it's obviously plausible, 'cause you are that role.

It's the easiest fakeclaim because the abilities of the role are easily gleaned. We know Pavellius was visited by scum, allowing you to claim you know scum visited Pavellius. We know two players claimed to be transported, and we know that heydude claimed to have visited IcyTea and was redirected to himself, which you have claimed prompted a "heydude was visited by scum" message.

Scum are also making strategies, using the information available of them to influence town to make a poor decision.

Case in point: piratejoe. He knows he messed up by not realizing earlier that only he or I could have performed the nightkill, now he's trying to dig his way out of that hole by implicating someone else with the information available in the thread.

I mean, it wasn't really a realization earlier that 'only you or I could have night killed' and more I didn't have time to actually be here for the latter half of the day up until yesterday. Still, I feel like mentioning that, I actually stated a plausible role, you have yet to do such a thing, and honestly, the argument of 'I don't want to have the mafia come after me' doesn't count at this point as we are in a Lynch or Lose situation. Anyway, hector13 nothing personal, you already know my reasons.

The first thing I stated right at the start is that Transporters stop scum from winning. We're not in LyLo, but it would be wise to kill scum.

The reason I haven't claimed is because we're guarenteed another night, and I want the scum to know I can mess them up. I've softclaimed some things already, but I might decide to block them. Maybe even shoot them. Perhaps I'll just defend their targets, or redirect their attacks someplace.

I don't care if mafia come after me, or maybe I just want them to think that.

I suppose, to be fair, if they're clever enough they already know what I am... but why take the risk and allow them to plan their way around what I can do?

[IcyTea31]

I've softclaimed some things already, but I might decide to block them. Maybe even shoot them. Perhaps I'll just defend their targets, or redirect their attacks someplace.

I'll be taking that as a claim of a non-investigative town role...

You didn't visit Pavellius.

...Unless you'd like to say that this is a lookout claim. (Do it, I'll laugh.)

We're not in LyLo, but it would be wise to kill scum.

With a transporter and crossed counterclaims, it's a Lynch-and-Win as long as the transporter survives. Kill scum now, their counterclaim is confirmed. The transporter plays his best nightgame to point the kill to someone, anyone else (WIFOM, but odds favour him). Lynch one of the remaining counterclaims. Even if it's a mislynch, the transporter wins the one-on-one against the mafioso.

Leodanny, piratejoe and hector: I don't think any of you believe I'm scum. Heydude6 is about to counterclaim me*. Change your votes to him, deal with the piratejoe-hector problem later.

*Or if he claims non-investigative, that's when the fun begins.

Leodanny: once scum is lynched today, you'll want to target either yourself or the now-confirmed townie as one target, and one of the remaining counterclaimers as the other. One of them is scum, and won't be targeting the other with their kill as that would blow their cover the next day. The next day, if I'm not alive, lynch either of the remaining counterclaimers and you've won the game. If a no-kill occurs, lynch one of the counterclaimers and transport the other with yourself on the following night: you'll win.

[piratejoe]

If you are what role you say you are, you don't worry about it because it's obviously plausible, 'cause you are that role.

It's the easiest fakeclaim because the abilities of the role are easily gleaned. We know Pavellius was visited by scum, allowing you to claim you know scum visited Pavellius. We know two players claimed to be transported, and we know that heydude claimed to have visited IcyTea and was redirected to himself, which you have claimed prompted a "heydude was visited by scum" message.

Its plausible yes, but not probable, and that is where the issue comes, because town really needs to kill some scum right now. Even if it is the 'easiest' fake claim, its the most risky one seeing how the other spy is dead.

The first thing I stated right at the start is that Transporters stop scum from winning. We're not in LyLo, but it would be wise to kill scum.

The reason I haven't claimed is because we're guarenteed another night, and I want the scum to know I can mess them up. I've softclaimed some things already, but I might decide to block them. Maybe even shoot them. Perhaps I'll just defend their targets, or redirect their attacks someplace.

I don't care if mafia come after me, or maybe I just want them to think that.

I suppose, to be fair, if they're clever enough they already know what I am... but why take the risk and allow them to plan their way around what I can do?

We actually kind of are. If the Transporter ends up unlucky/scum get lucky, we lose. And even if no one dies tonight, if we Lynched a town today, it would be a 2v2. And considering everything, you and I both know you won't protect anyone, unless killing them is considered protecting to you.

Leodanny, piratejoe and hector: I don't think any of you believe I'm scum. Heydude6 is about to counterclaim me*. Change your votes to him, deal with the piratejoe-hector problem later.

Alright. Not that it would have mattered anyway I guess. If Hector13 died, Heydude6 would just become the mafioso during the night so I guess it wouldn't have prevented a death...

piratejoe (1) - hector13
IcyTea31 (2) - heydude6, piratejoe
heydude6 (1) - IcyTea31

Not Voting: heydude6, Leodanny

Day ends at 2:00 AM, on Monday (February 4th) FST
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[IcyTea31]

You got the format a little off there, unless you meant to put your vote on me?

piratejoe (1) - hector13
IcyTea31 (1) - heydude6
heydude6 (2) - IcyTea31, piratejoe

Not Voting: Leodanny

Day ends at 2:00 AM, on Monday (February 4th) FST
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I will say that if we end with a no lynch due to a split vote here, look at the other wagon when deciding your targets for the night.

[piratejoe]

Yeah, format was off, sorry...I can't believe I actually made that mistake... Then again, I was worried about literally everything but the counter before posting that.

[hector13]

IcyTea assumes a lot.

I don’t know who’s scum out of him and heydude, and I don’t know if piratejoe would be so bold as to his his scum partner or not.

On top of that, piratejoe is confirmed scum to me, and I’m not buying the “I was too afraid to claim” nonsense when he’s insistent on it being LyLo. If you’re worried about claiming then, especially with a role of limited utility as spy, you’re not worried about the town’s interest.

I’m not voting for anyone who isn’t him unless someone gives me a very convincing argument.

[IcyTea31]

I don’t know who’s scum out of him and heydude

Then why haven't you questioned me and him more? I was pushing you to a corner with my "but I could have performed the kill!" act, but you just kept on insisting that it must have been piratejoe, even as your evidence fell apart. You've changed your case's main point since to "it's too convenient", but that's quite weak, don't you think? Why haven't you questioned piratejoe more and given him rope to hang himself with, rather than accuse him with the same gut-feeling case over and over again? You're an experienced player, you could demolish him in an instant if you had an actual logical case.

I’m not buying the “I was too afraid to claim” nonsense when he’s insistent on it being LyLo. If you’re worried about claiming then, especially with a role of limited utility as spy, you’re not worried about the town’s interest.

If it is, in your opinion, in the town's interest to claim, why haven't you claimed yet?

I’m not voting for anyone who isn’t him unless someone gives me a very convincing argument.

Literally winning the game isn't convincing enough?

[IcyTea31]

I’m not buying the “I was too afraid to claim” nonsense when he’s insistent on it being LyLo. If you’re worried about claiming then, especially with a role of limited utility as spy, you’re not worried about the town’s interest.

If it is, in your opinion, in the town's interest to claim, why haven't you claimed yet?

Inb4 "you're twisting my words!": if not that, what do you mean with the quoted excerpt?

[heydude6]

Damn, I had to go away and do something for a bit and this is what I come back to. Let me say a few things.

You were transported to target yourself.

Here's the problem: what if I targeted Pavellius? The transport wouldn't change that. I'm confirmed as having been transported, but nobody can confirm as to whether I did what I say I did.

Tomasque only posted the rules clarification after you asked him why he trusted you. We were both operating on the assumption that redirected players got PMs (as can be seen in his argument for why Piratejoe performed the nightkill) before that. You are assuming that hector is deliberately misinterpreting the rules to make an argument in bad faith. Thing is, from my perspective, that's an incredibly stupid thing to do as scum. Arguments based on faulty premises fall apart as soon as you look at them with a hint of logic. Do you think hector was too dumb to realize that? Do you think an experienced player like Hector thought he'd be able to sneak that past an experienced player like you. This isn't an argument scum would make, this is the argument of a confused townie.

You were already wrong about Mafioso's being unable to kill themselves, and you had no proof that players get the transporter PM for being a target of the transporter rather than targeting for getting their target swapped by him since you didn't test that theory yourself. If Tomasque hadn't confirmed it right after you posted your question, your hypothetical targeting another person scenario wouldn't have been possible.

You knew you were transported and at the time I thought you only got the PM when you targeted the transporters target.

At the time you thought so. Since then, it's been explained that you get the PM regardless of who you target. I'm starting to question whether people don't know how the transporter works or are acting dumb to support their arguments?

I've already explained why acting dumb to support an argument is a terrible idea.

If piratejoe was spy and he wasn’t lying, then he would only know that those two people were visited by the mafia. He wouldn’t know about some third secret person.

He would know if Leodanny was visited by a consort, in which case nobody would have visited you. Lies work like that, they don't add up.

After rereading the whole conversation, I think I see your point now. I still don't believe it was sufficient evidence to vote Piratejoe, but clearly we're past that now.

The mafia consort wouldn’t target Pavellius and then have the Mafioso kill him. It would be a waste of their action. It would only make sense if he was a Vig planning to shoot someone important, but the Vig can’t shoot day 1.

Pavellius could have RB'd the mafioso. But yes, it'd be absurd, though not impossible.

If Pavellius RBed the mafioso, then there wouldn't have been a nightkill. RBs have priority. Still, we can move on from this now.

You should have been able to counterclaim, or question him but you didn’t.

I don't need to counterclaim him, though you might want to. I'm the investigator*. If piratejoe is the spy, what's your role, heydude6?


*Saying that my ability "failed" was a way to hide it and see if someone else claims an investigative role. My results were that my target could be an investigator or consigliere, which is why I asked for the transporter's other target immediately, as I suspected a self-target.

Now that I'm out and assuming heydude claims an investigative role, the other unconfirmed townie should know their own counterclaim to be scum for sure, be that piratejoe or hector.

I'm not surprised you claimed investigator. It's the only role you can choose that will justify your support for Piratejoe. The thing about Piratejoe's claim is that it was made using information that everyone had access to. I'm not going to list it off again, but the point is that anyone could have made that spy claim if they happened to be scum. They simply chose me as the visiting target because I had already confirmed that I targeted you and therefore myself. If some other hapless bystander targeted you instead and also confirmed it, then they would have been the visitor.

What I find interesting is that you were goading me into telling you who I targeted for quite a while. When I finally give in, PirateJoe comes along with this highly improbable role as well as evidence that points directly at me. If he had any other role, he wouldn't have been able to do that. Don't you find that to coincidence to be rather convenient? To spell it out more explicitly, I think you and PirateJoe are scumbuddies who were trying to get me to claim my target so you could trap me with Piratejoe's spy claim. It's a good plan. You need one like that to win a game as townsided as this.

It will be up to Leodanny to decide whether your plan is ultimately successful or not. There's just one last thing. We don't have an investigator. We have a Sheriff, which is why I knew you were up to no good. Though you already knew that. Others may be impressed when you copy responses from the detailed role descriptions section, but it isn't really that hard.

[hector13]

PPE: patience is a virtue :p

When did I say it was in the town’s interest for anyone to claim? You claimed, how did that help town, especially when you say heydude will make the same one? Leodanny claimed, now the scum know who the transporter is. piratejoe claimed, then I knew he was lying.

I said him being worried about claiming his actual role implies he’s not actually the role he claims. This is not the central point of my case against him, it is the recent focus because he recently claimed.

I was poking at you at the start of the day, and then felt I would get a better read of you and heydude by watching how you went about “giving enough role “ to hang himself with. You appear to have done the opposite, and then just gave up and demanded we all vote for him instead.

Who is the second scum, IcyTea? You said you weren’t going to claim because you could find both by not claiming. Enlighten us.

You haven’t shown me how your claim for being town is any better than heydude’s. “Literally winning the game” does not necessarily mean doing it for town, you know :p

What’s illogical about my case against piratejoe? I could claim, but then we’re in the same boat you expect to be with heydude: two contradicting claims that we can’t prove until someone flips. I have been very open that my case is only good from my perspective.

I attacked his very slow vote, despite him being so aware that I was the only one who could have killed Pavellius that he didn’t say anything about it until halfway through the day. He was so confident that heydude and I were the scum team that he didn’t vote either of us until the latter half of the day, despite being around at the very start to tell us about his reads, then drastically altering them to fit his claim in the latter half of the day.

What exactly is it you want me to tear apart, IcyTea? I’ve touched on everything he’s done during the day, and allegedly did during the night. What part of his argument stands up to scrutiny, or have I got wrong?

PPE: *about to claim, heydude posts* errr, never mind, we might as well out the scum. I’m a transporter, targeted Pavellius and myself, because I thought I’d get mafiakilled and Pavellius was less active D1, so his flip would get something from him. This is also how I know IcyTea didn’t target Pavellius, else he’d have got a result on me. Also why I didn’t want to claim, but I guess scum would’ve figured it out anyway.

Anyone paying attention will know we can’t have two transporters, two spies and an escort. piratejoe is lying.

Now to properly read heydude’s post.