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[Madman198237]

The underlying assumption of my plan is that we can fix NOTSOFT to be worth 3 UP.

If that assumption is true, then we should just send a single squad of NOTSOFT, because it will be better than the 2 Skyrangers' of rookies we COULD send. They WILL have the VPs for three UFOs again, if not more. And if they DO deploy only one UFO, we had better send everything we can muster after it, because it'll be loaded for bear, I suspect.

[Chiefwaffles]

It'd be pretty stupid to ignore a design just because it didn't get perfect rolls. We have a base that we can build on, and we should use them.

Revise Down and Capture: (1) roseheart
NOTSOFTER: (2) Madman, Chiefwaffles
Upgraded Rookie training program (1) strongpoint

[Happerry]

My issue with the fire support revision can basically be summed up as 'I do not think we currently have air weapons that work for fire support'. Our Raven Interceptors were described as using missiles, and none of the missile weapons in XCOM have had a lot of ammo. It's a good idea once we get Laser Cannons or something, or perhaps design a ship actually designed for fire support. Maybe this game's version of the Lightning?

Revise Down and Capture: (1) roseheart
NOTSOFTER: (3) Madman, Chiefwaffles, Happerry
Upgraded Rookie training program (1) strongpoint

[Madman198237]

We're not actually confined to XCOM's stuff, guys. If we want to make an interceptor armed with guns, then let's make an interceptor armed with guns.

Or we could just design a ground-support aircraft (A-10 but more modern, anyone?) aimed at 1 VP, and send a transport and a ground-attack plane after every single alien landing site.

[Happerry]

We're not actually confined to XCOM's stuff, guys. If we want to make an interceptor armed with guns, then let's make an interceptor armed with guns.

Yes, we can do this. And if we want aircraft doing fire support missions, we should do this before we make a mission type that wants a fire support plane.

Depending on how this turn goes, I might very well support that plan next turn. (Though preferably I'd like to get some alien loot this turn and then expend any bonus we get from that to get laser weapons without risking our bad rolls from hitting us again.)

[Madman198237]

I think you mean "plasma weaponry", since the aliens aren't using any sort of lasers yet and we shouldn't assume they will be.

As for the comment about us not being confined, I said that because if we need ground support, the best way to get it is to make a ground support plane, not wait til we get lasers (Which *should* be weaker than plasma weaponry, by the way, depending on how closely the GM follows source material, as well as how "soft" the sci-fi of the source material is).

[Happerry]

I think you mean "plasma weaponry", since the aliens aren't using any sort of lasers yet and we shouldn't assume they will be.

As for the comment about us not being confined, I said that because if we need ground support, the best way to get it is to make a ground support plane, not wait til we get lasers (Which *should* be weaker than plasma weaponry, by the way, depending on how closely the GM follows source material, as well as how "soft" the sci-fi of the source material is).

I said Lasers because lasers should be easier then plasma to make, and don't need alien sourced ammo which should be another factor in making them cheaper then plasma. We could try gauss or railguns or something instead if you really don't want lasers. But plasma is the top tier of canon weapons, so I doubt it's going to be easy to get. And given our current difficulties, I'd prefer to aim for something we're more likely to actually succeed at, and then use that success to get more loot which we can then expend to get better odds at more difficult stuff.

[Madman198237]

I mean, we *can* continue to assume that it's all "top tier" and whatnot, or we can just branch out a bit, steal the stuff, and not worry too much about the highly artificial limits of XCOM's tech trees. Besides, what do you mean "alien-sourced ammo", plasma weapons should heat their shots themselves (i.e., take input of gas of some kind and turn it into a plasma) and not need any fancy external ammo.

[Strongpoint]

10ebbor10
Do Raven have access any kind of air to ground weapons? I assumed that we have what modern airforces have + avalanche (the best air to air missile in the world)

[Happerry]

I mean, we *can* continue to assume that it's all "top tier" and whatnot, or we can just branch out a bit, steal the stuff, and not worry too much about the highly artificial limits of XCOM's tech trees. Besides, what do you mean "alien-sourced ammo", plasma weapons should heat their shots themselves (i.e., take input of gas of some kind and turn it into a plasma) and not need any fancy external ammo.

Plasma weapons need Elerium to make their ammo though? Well, in OldCom at least. I mean, it's not like we're going to have to track individual ammo clips, but that stuff is probably going to be taken into account when the time comes to calculate its cost.

Even beyond that, while we shouldn't feel limited to OldCom or NuCom's tech trees, just completely ignoring them and assuming we can skip right to end game applications doesn't seem very wise to me. This game does have Difficulty modifiers to our rolls after all, and we really don't want to get -2 or -3 modifiers to our rolls for trying to grab top level stuff right off. And that's assuming that going right for Plasma doesn't get slotted in as 'Impossible'.

[Madman198237]

It's also assuming we can't use the science in sci-fi to accomplish things, instead of being handcuffed to XCOM's tech tree.

[stabbymcstabstab]

Revise Down and Capture: (1) roseheart
NOTSOFTER: (4) Madman, Chiefwaffles, Happerry, Stabby
Upgraded Rookie training program (1) strongpoint

I like the idea of laser weaponry if only so we can sell it to nation's militaries without endangering our technological monopoly.

[Blood_Librarian]

Honestly? I would prefer self-guided smart munitions on a slightly larger than bullet scale.

[Happerry]

It's also assuming we can't use the science in sci-fi to accomplish things, instead of being handcuffed to XCOM's tech tree.

Um, Ahem.

Even beyond that, while we shouldn't feel limited to OldCom or NuCom's tech trees, just completely ignoring them and assuming we can skip right to end game applications doesn't seem very wise to me. This game does have Difficulty modifiers to our rolls after all, and we really don't want to get -2 or -3 modifiers to our rolls for trying to grab top level stuff right off. And that's assuming that going right for Plasma doesn't get slotted in as 'Impossible'.

You seem to be under the impression that 'we should not blindly copy every last bit' means 'lets dump the entire thing and pretend it does not exist'. This is still an X-Com game, not a generic science fiction game. Just as there's no reason not to consider upgrading to alloy ammo as a cheaper alternative to energy weapons, there's also no reason to expect that the game will let us jump right to top level applications in our first weapon upgrade and have it all work out fine.

Honestly? I would prefer self-guided smart munitions on a slightly larger than bullet scale.

So Blaster Bombs?

[Madman198237]

My point is:

Who's telling us that plasma is a top-tier weapon choice? What particular game mechanic is making a plasma weapon unobtainable right now? This is an Arms Race, we have no designated tech trees, no tech is necessarily more powerful than any other, they all have their requirements, advantages, and disadvantages. The aliens get a shortcut to advanced tech, however, to make it an interesting asymmetric AR. We just get to invent our own way around, as well as slowly acquiring their tech. However, we don't have to operate under the assumption that the alien tech is the be-all end-all of warfare, nor do we have to act like we must first get the tech from the aliens (though that will make some things easier).