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[RoseHeart]

I don't entirely disagree with the madman's "sentiment", we don't need to assume we have to play by the usual rules. But everything I've seen does line up with my 360 XCOM experience.

I think we should play it by the book.
Get plasma, use it. We can make our "cool toys" with the typical tech flow, rather than waste time and energy.

(Clarification: get plasma from the ets, not from scratch)

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[Chiefwaffles]

I'm of the opinion that while we shouldn't limit ourselves strictly to just redoing XCOM's tech tree, we should still base it off of the same ideas. Take the aliens tech, make our own designs using it, and do them better than the aliens. And the game mechanic making a plasma weapon unobtainable right now is the fact that we have no idea how to build a plasma weapon and can't using our conventional technology or knowledge.

[10ebbor10]

10ebbor10
Do Raven have access any kind of air to ground weapons? I assumed that we have what modern airforces have + avalanche (the best air to air missile in the world)

You have conventional air-to-ground ammo, yes. On the other hand, the Raven is exactly designed for it, and

Commander! You may want to instruct your men to exercise restraint when using explosives... while certainly effective at killing aliens, they also destroy the artifacts we're hoping to recover from the bodies. Just something to consider.

[Cnidaros]

Revise Down and Capture: (1) roseheart
NOTSOFTER: (5) Madman, Chiefwaffles, Happerry, Stabby, Cnidaros
Upgraded Rookie training program (1) strongpoint

I'm thinking the revision may end up along the lines of "beatings will continue until morale improves!"

[RoseHeart]

As a new player to XCOM games I can make two choices:
A. Take a backseat role, and just watch and learn.
B. Make assumptions, and actively participate.

I briefly contemplated the first option. I will dare to do the second.

From what I've seen, I believe these games have been played with a focus on tactics, not strategy. I am not talking at all about the mechanics, but the 'culture' of the playstyle grown around it.

I am officially hiring myself as the team's Strategist.

"Strategy without tactics is the slowest route to victory. Tactics without strategy is the noise before defeat."
–Sun Tzu

(tldr: pretty much the Sun Tzu quote)


We build, we deploy, we win or lose battles, then we instantly build.

Perhaps, if we agreed to set aside 12 hours after a turn just to discuss the results and where we should go, we could make macro decisions rather than 100% micro reactions. I will make a social vote for this time to put aside.

Strategyphase
For at least 12 hours after the start of what would be the design phase, no designs are to be proposed or voted on, to avoid early snowballing before discussion.
The focus on this discussion is to predict enemy reactions, and set far reaching goals, and change them when doing so becomes necessary.

While I realize it is common to 'tack on' some strategy to a proposal, I believe a focused effort will render greater cohesion and more effective design philosophies.

REVISIONS
Revise Down and Capture: (0)
NOTSOFTER: (6) Madman, Chiefwaffles, Happerry, Stabby, Cnidaros, roseheart
Upgraded Rookie training program (1) strongpoint

SOCIAL
Strategyphase: (1) roseheart

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[Chiefwaffles]

I don't really agree with you, roseheart. Arms Race is all about strategy, but you seem to miss the people playing around that. Hell, we already have people planning on how to incorporate alien tech in the future and what we're going to do - whether ceramics now is a good idea, or how we should approach weapons, and more.

The first thing to note is Discord, or rather the lack of it. As people don't have to worry about spamming a thread and dealing with 1-2 responses a day on average, discussion there goes a lot faster. While the critical stuff for the game goes in the forum, the discussion really helps strategy. Immensely so.
The second thing is that of "hidden" agendas. Most people don't suggest things in a void - most of the time, they aren't only ever dictated by random designs popping into their minds. Lots of people have a plan that they want to generally see through, even if the democratic nature of the game means only portions of it can actually be voted in. The intenseness of this plan (from "wouldn't having flying laser drones in a few turns be cool?" to "In exactly 4 turns we will create a gravity motorbike for our men") varies, but it generally exists.
The third, is that concrete definite strategies are just a bad idea - you can't just lay out "we do design A this turn, design B next turn, and design C next turn", because the random aspect of designs prevents that from being practical. This plus the lack of easy discussion means it's hard to discuss plans when people generally don't have any one definite one.


For example, Wands Race - the magic-based Arms Race that was finished something like 1-2 months ago by evictedSaint. Arstotzka, one of the sides, had a plan. Many designs were part of a grander plan. There were tons of times when designs didn't have immediate benefits, or the full nature of a design wouldn't be finished for numerous turns. And this was intentional. Coming up with more specific examples here off hand isn't particularly easy, since the game finished a while ago. But there were so many plans. Aircraft, proper artillery, tanks, wonder-materials, going to space, and much more.

Or Battle for Aljadid. Considering it's still ongoing, giving out actual examples isn't really something I'm comfortable doing. But Ertex, for example, has a plan. Nearly everything we design, revise, and do in the strategy phase is specifically done in order to  facilitate future endeavours. Current designs are made around what we already plan on doing in the future and what we assume Quillus will do. And Quillus most likely does as well.


The XCOM Arms Race is stil new, and doesn't have a Discord. While a Discord isn't required, it most definitely facilitates discussion. And as for the new aspect, just give it time.

REVISIONS
Revise Down and Capture:Revise Down and Capture: (1) roseheart
NOTSOFTER: (5) Madman, Chiefwaffles, Happerry, Stabby, Cnidaros
Upgraded Rookie training program (1) strongpoint

SOCIAL
"Strategy Phase"
- Yes (1): roseheart
- No (1): Chiefwaffles

[RoseHeart]

The third, is that concrete definite strategies are just a bad idea - you can't just lay out "we do design A this turn, design B next turn, and design C next turn", because the random aspect of designs prevents that from being practical. This plus the lack of easy discussion means it's hard to discuss plans when people generally don't have any one definite one.

Not at all, it's no more locking things in than other types of discussion. But a plan that gets 3+ votes before the other half had a chance read the game update, really is.

The first thing to note is Discord, or rather the lack of it. As people don't have to worry about spamming a thread and dealing with 1-2 responses a day on average, discussion there goes a lot faster. While the critical stuff for the game goes in the forum, the discussion really helps strategy. Immensely so.

Perhaps, and I can see you being right about that. However, I see no reason why it couldn't happen in the thread if time was put aside for it.

As far as "hidden agendas" those are what win wars, but only if they are hidden from the enemy, not each other.
Trusting there are no spies of course(which I do).

REVISIONS
Revise Down and Capture: (0)
NOTSOFTER: (6) Madman, Chiefwaffles, Happerry, Stabby, Cnidaros, roseheart
Upgraded Rookie training program (1) strongpoint

SOCIAL
Strategyphase:
- Yes (1): roseheart
- No (1): Chiefwaffles

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[Strongpoint]

NOTSOFT Enhanced Retention (NOTSOFTER) (expanded)
By borrowing a few SAS, SEAL, and yes, even a couple Spetsnaz trainers, we hope to bring our program up to its original specifications. The apparent focus on brutality is to be discarded for a focus on efficiency and training value. Instead of raw brutality, we will have hard training regimens with a purpose. Also, there's no reason for permanent injuries in a reasonable training regimen. Whatever weird thing is causing those, we got rid of it. Strained muscles and bruises are to be expected, even broken bones if, for example. However, it should not be so traumatic as to permanently debilitate them, that's just ridiculous. Additionally few lessons of the first battle are incorporated into the training. Tactics that are used to seek cover against gunfire are revised to take into account wall melting ability of plasma weapons. More attention is paid to techniques of hiding against surveillance drones of any kind and detecting them before they detect you. In the same time spent on human weaponry vs human weaponry is reduced (but not eliminated in case of existing or potential human allies of Aliens)

I think not mentioning our combat experience is wrong

NOTSOFTER: (6) Madman, Chiefwaffles, Happerry, Stabby, Cnidaros, roseheart
NOTSOFTER (expanded version): (1) strongpoint

And no, I am not going to pollute the votebox with any kind of rules discussion.

[Khan Boyzitbig]

Following the XCOM tech trees by the book would be a bad idea, predictable actions make easy pickings for the foe.

Using things that aren't usual will help us, the aliens wouldn't expect a successful capture to be "We now have a UFO of our own", something to consider for the future when we actually have a chance of using their ships.

[Madman198237]

There's no point to a "Strategy Phase". Usually, I'm the one who's guilty of planning *something* over multiple turns, but right now I don't even have one because we've not really fought the enemy yet, we've not really felt the flow of the game, we don't know what salvage is going to do for us, etc.

So for now, let's just get some people to survive combat, alright? We need more information before we start planning, we'll worry about "strategy" later.

[RoseHeart]

If my opinion will not be agreed with Strongpoint, so be it.

It will be heard.
Truth is Madman, there is a lot we can deduce from the first encounters.
The enemy has seen that they are comparable with us in air-to-air, and superior in ground-to-ground.
Where are they currently thinking their most vulnerable? If they are not immediately improving their air-to-air capabilities, it's going to be up there in their priorities I'd bet on it.

As for Khan and Madman discussing using an alternative Tech Tree, what would you possibly suggest we do other than the usual tiers? What exists today in the real world that is better than plasma?

As the strategist, I appreciate that we are in the field of discussing strategy and that is exactly what this is doing.

But I doubt the enemy is going to be making plasma resistant armor before we even get our hands on it and use it in battle. Or each additional Tech tier. I think it's safe to grab that stuff and use it. I am open to an alternative path I just don't see any realistic ones available.

(Ironically, in real life, us civilians wouldn't know about it if there were >.<)Strongpoint's program is simply a superior version, and we should support it.

REVISIONS
NOTSOFTER: (5) Madman, Chiefwaffles, Happerry, Stabby, Cnidaros
NOTSOFTER (expanded version): (2) strongpoint, roseheart

SOCIAL
Strategyphase:
- Yes (1): roseheart
- No (3): Chiefwaffles, Strongpoint, Madman198237

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[Happerry]

Personally I'm against a Discord because the discussion there always goes way faster then i have the spare time, energy, and attention for, so I'm always left out of those talks.

...But on the other hand, appointing oneself 'thread strategy person' is also a bit foolish, because we're all thread strategy people, and the person who's most convincing about their plans is the one to get people to vote for them.

[RoseHeart]

What is your strategy?

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[Madman198237]

-snip-
As the strategist, I appreciate that we are in the field of discussing strategy and that is exactly what this is doing.
-snip-

Who died and appointed you and your opinions master of our strategy? Look, strategy will be discussed, but it sure isn't going to come from you claiming to be a strategist.

As for the alternative NOTSOFTER revision, I think that that's not a good plan because it's trying to be another design of "How to fight aliens" when fighting aliens is just like fighting humans: Spot them, shoot them, don't get shot. The weapons are different, the places you shoot to kill are different (Maybe, XCOM's basic sectoid things are humanoid, right?), but ultimately, special forces training is still about the person behind the gun, not the person you're pointing it at.

[RoseHeart]

Well if we want to discuss advanced modern weapons, we should ask Stirk. GM, may I invite them to come and give their opinion?

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