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[Tiruin]

((Tir,  PLEASE spoiler all that.  I don't want to read through it, as I don't want to argue with you.  Please?  I doubt it'll make anything you say less persuasive.))

On another note, did anyone check if even our suits or otherwise are pretty much something the enemy can gain something out of? Part of the reason or assumption why I would like someone to 'trap' our bodies or at least expend those explosives on something, unless something else will explode. Only reasoning why I believe the Nazis are running away from their own base other than fire in several locations. Given the limited view where Alice is, the runway is dark and those AA guns can't see the plane or its take off trajectory anytime soon, maybe?

That, or detail as to how bad the fire is wasn't direct when I read it?

Also it seems the only way out from that position with the truck is where Smith is at, then right.

[Ozarck]

feel free to look at the third one first. the first two are long and detailed, because you asked for clarity. If you feel that a response to the third is warranted, the other bits are far less important.

Spoiler: first response including clarificatin on why I claim You, Tiruin, have repeatedly ignored or been ignorant of important information (click to show/hide)

you want me to clarify my point about how you repeatedly ignore what i say? Well, it looks like repetition is key to getting your attention, because at least that information got through. Which is exactly why I repeated it without clarifying. because i felt if I clarified before you acknowledged the problem, you would continue to ignore it. so here:

you ignore my input, and then tell me how to proceed.

There are two buildings full of munitions on the premises. In plain view. One of which has been visited by three of us. Both of which are on fire. Both of which have taken damage from aa guns.

Neither of which has yet exploded.

This is followed immediately by:

Also stop rushing out with that jeep. Wait for people, aid the wounded, appoint some people or set out an order to fire on all people in uniform--which can never be us since we're in black, for protection. >_< You have ALL THE TIME now, especially since the foe is disoriented and most likely having lost their officers and key personnel.

note how I say: there are bombs about to go off, we don't have much time" and instead of replying regarding the bombs you say "the nazis are dead and in disarray, you have plenty of time." The nazis were not my concern. The explosives in the bunker were. Either you were unaware of that isue, or you ignored it. Either way, it made your suggestion meaningless.

Ed knows about the kids, as do Yarrick and Joe Nix? Since they were with me when I drove up and started loading shells. If Ed thought we had time, he would be more than glad to stick around and load more kids. Ed's seeing visions of fiery death right now - visions both real and potential.

Also stop rushing out with that jeep. Wait for people, aid the wounded, appoint some people or set out an order to fire on all people in uniform--which can never be us since we're in black, for protection. >_< You have ALL THE TIME now, especially since the foe is disoriented and most likely having lost their officers and key personnel.

I'll slow down a bit, but we do NOT have all the time in the world. I repeat - the munitions buildings remain a very big explsoive threat. just because th fuel station exploded, doesn't mean we are done with the fireworks.
[/quote]I would suggest someone (notably Toaster) to mention the kids.

Their building is on fire, and I doubt the fire can creep in so fast as to get it done in. Besides that, you're all pretty okay.

Just have someone APPRAISE THE SITUATION as a bolded action to check how fast the fire is spreading.

...I really would like to mention to y'all about that <_<
Because those kids are in that building, and the exit is pretty close to it by the road.
[/quote]Here, you show lack of awareness that Ed has already encountered the kids. You are commenting with out of date information. I can't tell from your wording here if this is a response to the "the munitions are going to explode" issue or not.

Yeah, pretty sure the objective here was info, remember? Papers or kidnapped people. Kids were secondary and blowing up the base was the exit action.

Well we did the exit

...We didn't do anything else I guess? ._. As far as I know...that being pretty little actually, Joan signaled home base and notified them of the sitrep.

Ed knows about the kids, as do Yarrick and Joe Nix? Since they were with me when I drove up and started loading shells. If Ed thought we had time, he would be more than glad to stick around and load more kids. Ed's seeing visions of fiery death right now - visions both real and potential.

Just do it :I Y'all have a lot of driving to go through and an unknown rendezvous point--just like Alice!
Also probably clear those darn AA guns up North, send in a kill team of ~3 to 4 people to cover and overwatch/get those AA guns, while the rest of you try to salvage the children OR any papers.

Not in the barracks but probably in the same area your kill team is heading to.

I do confess that I have exactly zero interest in collecting corpses though. equipment? If it is special, sure. that radio, for instance, is our ticket out of here, though I am sure we could find a way without it.

Because dog tags don't exist?
All I'm asking is since we had COLLATERAL AVOIDABLE DEATHS, that you trap our corpses, being the Engineer that set the bomb himself.
Me and Zack have supplies from the supply depot--no grenades, but you can rig stuff up.
Actually everyone is pretty okay, considering that we have an advantage of having disoriented the enemy here. I'm totally not still grumpy nope. Hmpf!

Here, I remind you that Ed knows about the kids I also remind you that Ed sees a time limit in the oncoming explosion. You insist on a side mission to rig corpses. Ironically, you also admit that the bomb worked in our favor by "disorienting the enemy." I also remind you that Ed has already loaded a third of the shells, which you seem quite ignroant of at this point, since yu say we "didn't do anything." At this point in teh argument, you bring up the mission objectives, but seem unclear on what they are. I will give tehm for you now:
1) gather information about what the nazis are doing here
2) rescue the kidnapped children
3) cause property damage.

now, in regard to these objectives, I have already argued, as have otehrs, that we have at least partially completed two of them, and pretty handily completed the third.
1) The shells themselves, and Alice's plane, carry significant amounts of information, this is in addition to your own report and the eyewitness testimony of several characters
2) this one is 1/3 complete at this point. a partial victory at worst.
3) The map shows extensive damage to over 2/3 of the base. We did that. We also killed dozens of Nazis, at the regrettable loss of hmmm, at least four deaths, counting the one in the plane. Not sure if anyone else has died in between. Yes, our deaths were regrettable. Or rather, your deaths. Yes, dying to friendly action sucks. Yes, this was a risk Ed took. And, now this part is important to my complaint: Ed had good intentions of a) creating a distraction, b) doing significant damage to the base, and c) disorienting the nazis. You may disagree with his methods, but at least acknowledge that Ed has, on more than one occasion, done as much as he can to either support the team or to complete objectives.

First, in the plane Ed's stated action was t oshove as many teammates out as possible, being the last to leave.

Second, his attempt to rig the munitions building was with an eye toward helping wit the teammates who had already blown our cover and started a firefight with dozens of Nazis. Note that his action here was only to occur if his teammates agreed. So, ed was allowing the others to say no here. He did not act alone, or insane, or any of that. You, and others, have repeatedly ignored or dismissed this fact. You were probably ignorant of it since you only read what is relevant to you personally, though this issue was raised several times in this thread.

Third, instead of waiting outside the base until after the bomb exploded, Ed drove in to support his teammates and accomplish the objective he had available to him. And wit the help of two tohers, he accomplishe 1/3 of that objective. Which you then failed to notice or acknowledge. repeatedly.

Fourth Ed waited and collected the rest of the shells, completing that objective:

Basically, everyone got in the truck, except smith. Ed loaded the rest of the shells in the truck too. Everyone who ate a ration restored their physical +2, but literally no one managed to heal themselves thanks to physical damage. Also tons of people didn't bother to update their sheets with the damage they took. Please do that.  Winston got the radio and the rest of Joan's stuff. Alice got in touch with Winston, and Bone, and found out the plane had no weapons.

And the rest of the nazi's near Alice ran away because the fucking base is on fire.

Note the timestamp here. Also note that PW gives the exact reason the Nazis ran away: the base is On Fucking Fire. this has nothing to do with the children being bombs. Which you claim later. Let me see if I can find that quote:

Also the Nazis running away is something Alice can cue people in on; that means either they're really afraid of things blowing up even more--that is likely the children...bombs. >_>
Or another ammunition storage that we probably don't know of?

See? Really? Besides, why would the Nazis be woried about a secret ammo dump instead of the obvious one that is already clearly on fire? You dismiss my concerns about the two munitions buildings, then imply that there is another, greater, invisible threat. This is directly insulting, since i repeated more than once the very obvious fact that the base is burning, the munitions dump is burning, etc.

Next:

Get back there and bloody save the children rather than running off because of the abstracted timeframe of time, and that fire.

Else the mission just ends with NO objectives done, THREE people dead, and a completely messed up planning set.

Either way with your numbers, you can get those children...shells, into that army truck.


...So it may help to get the Children out. As a priority.

All of this is repetition of points already addressed, which suggests that you ignored or didn't read my responses, though you posted in response to them. The children were already loaded at this time. TWO OF THREE OBJECTIVE WERE COMPLETE and the third was partial complete. You upset me with your repeated dismissal of this. You diminish the work that most of your team did to this point by it. Sy in particular for stealing the truck, Yarrick and Joe Nix for helping load shells, yes, even Ed for setting the bomb. And sure, even Smith for relocating it so that the blast did less damage to the supply depot.

So, there is my response concerning how you've repeatedly either ignored, dismissed, or minimized my concerns, ignored and ridiculed my character's actions, and gave completely usel;ess advice on severely incomplete knowledge. and you question why I said I am not inclined to listen to said advice?

Spoiler: Second response, in regards to teh other points raised in Tiruin's latest response to my post (click to show/hide)

Eh. If Ed stands a court-martial, Ed stands a court-martial. It will be fun RP, at any rate. As for the wording of my request for glory -well, there's a reason for it. I'm sorry for the team deaths, including yours. But I won't second guess Ed. What's done is done. And the bomb - and Ed's actions- have, by GM fiat, advanced the mission, and therefore are worthy of GLORY.

Yeah it's just the issue with wording and tone. Implying that an action was better off because 'it killed more Nazis' doesn't matter when compared to the note that 3 notable soldiers of your side died in turn with it (and wounding lot more), followed by...
It may be just me and being conditioned to that emoticon sometimes being used in a jerk-y way, so that also modified how I felt because it is out of character for you as I recall.

that emoticon was intentionally rude, but it was not aimed at you. It is remarkable to me that you took in that part of that action, while missing so many other things. Anyway, I apologize for making light of the three deaths caused by the explosion. In regard to the "killed more Nazis" though, think of it this way: I expect that killing the several dozen Nazis, and chasing away even more, saved more lives than it ended. I expect that those dozens of Nazis would have a) more grenades, b) more concentrated firepower, and c) more shots of those weird stun rifles. Which, between them, are the reason the three of you were badly injured enough to be killed in the blast to begin with. Whether you agree with or disagree with this assessment, understand that that is how I see it. Also understand that neither I nor Ed are doing any of this for GLORY. But, after being criticized vehemently repeatedly, and completely for some time, I wanted to make a point.

I addressed a concern about your own behavior directly to you. It really is rude for another person to speak for you without giving you a chance to speak for yourself. He can interpret your intentions all he wants, but they mean nothing to me unless you specifically affirm them.That will muddle up a lot of your efforts in internet and multi-person conversations buddy
But to clarify: I'm okay with anyone voicing their opinion of me if they 'interject'; meaning what madman said is something I'm ok with. It's a thing people do. It doesn't mean any less or more, or rude or otherwise.

You are fine with his opinion of you. I am fine with his opinion of you. His opinion of you does not address my concerns with specifically how you have responded to me. I needed to get your attention: I did. I needed to hear from you that you understood my concern. I did not need someone else "making excuses" or "justifying behavior" on your behalf. because i wanted you to be aware of my perspective. Because I believed you would take it into consideration, which you seem to be doing.

That may or may not be true in this situation. I can't evaluate your statement, since you continue to ignore several points addressed to you.

Converse please. There's this strange thing which comes off as if you value personal subjectiveness over mutual conversation--that's highlighted by repetitive "since you continue to ignore several points addressed to you." And evaluate? Why do you see these as 'should or should not' based on if you think the other person is ignoring anything you say? That's what easily contributes so such divisiveness--that interpretation that others are ignoring what you say.

It is rude to say that to others when you can reclarify your own points better and more respectfully. It assumes we think what's in your head and that what you said was clear and others are missing your point, or that what you said is so clear that anyone else's response, if not what you expected, ignores what you said in favor of their own. On my part--my point back there was that if there was any responsibility to anyone getting harmed collaterally by a teammates action, it is one's responsibility to warn others. That was a rule back then in WWI. It feels off, or at least how my reading of semantics go, that you even reinforced a teammate's lack of doing this by saying 'it killed more Nazis, that's better'.

Here is a prime example f why I am rather reluctant to take any of your advice[...]My advice is moreso to the situation at that point rather than anything against you ._. stating something is a 'prime example' acts as if this unspoken bit within one's own perception is visible to everyone else. We don't know your thinking process, but it is evident it is built on some perspective of ignorance. That is not common in any conversation.

your advice missed the "situation at that point." Which is why it was a prime example. I even cited that in my previous post. I explained that the action you were advocating had already been conmpleted. You edited my response to take that out. Let me repost it:

Either way with your numbers, you can get those children...shells, into that army truck.Here is a prime example f why I am rather reluctant to take any of your advice: This action has already completed. You should know this. This turn was very short, since PW lost the longversion, and the two main points were that a) everyone left alive but Smith and Alice are in the truck, and b) all shells loaded. ACtually, I'll go one further. One of the primary points of this turn is that Ed loaded the remaining shells. Ed is called out specifically by name. And only Ed is called out here. Because only Ed had "load the remaining shells" in his action.

you see? I gave an example for you: you missed the update, and gave advice that was irrelevant.

Other people are making an honest apology because they're seeing what could be untoward insult.

Forgive me for missing this, and please be specific here: Who is making an honest apology? To whom? About what?

Change that perception of 'ignoring'; that isn't the usual in conversations. If you feel someone else is ignoring a point you have, clarify it with respect to the other person rather than issuing ultimatums. Maybe it's where I was brought up since English is my third language, but whenever I (or in seeing others, we) feel as if our points are 'ignored', we don't see it as it being ignored but try taking in the other person's response, including their emotions and how they could feel to think about the situation too, and then see whether the other person has any intent of ignoring what we say. And if we get to that point where we feel ignored, the usual thing we say would be like "at the time, I was [doing and thinking this; I probably didn't think that, or if there's fault, I admit to that but please don't blame me for {this other thing I feel you feel} because {reasons}]", we don't issue it as technical or ultimately like how you've written it there (as it comes off as rude, or at least inefficient that way)

It really comes off as weird that you reiterate the other person is 'ignoring' your points moreso than clarifying it for mutuality.

There have been enough instances throughout this mission where I have had to clarify things to you that I felt that ignoreing points had become one of the biggest issues. This reached a head after you died and started posting in this ooc thread, since, as I have shown, you did not respond to several of my statements directed at you, but continued giving advice as if my response did not exist or was irrelevant. I repeated my statement about being ignored so that you would pay attention to it. It is weird to repeat somethig like that. Which is why I used the tactic. the unusualness of it makes it stand out. And since I repeated several items already in this thread, and felt that they were being dismissed repeatedly, I wanted that to be clear. Why woudl I repeat my claims a fourth or fifth time if they have already been ignored three or four times?
[/quote]

Spoiler: final thoughts for Tiruin. Feel fre to read only this one: it's shorter and the response to it could satisfy me that this issue is resolved (click to show/hide)

Tiruin, I feel that, the biggest issue here for me is that you have not acknowledged that Ed has had good intentions and has done much to help as best he can. I also feel that you have not acknowledged that I as a player have striven to be helpful, cooperative, and to act in good faith.

You may disagree wit hmy methods, or Ed's methods. that is fine, that is normal. But at least acknowldge that he is making effort to do well.

Also please acknowledge that I have provided information to yourself and others for the sake of clarity, and that i do have an overall decent grasp of the overall picture of the mission. Whether you agree with my assessment of specific actions or events, at least recognize that I have something valuable to contribute.

For the record, I value you as a player, and your character as an ally. The same goes for everyone else, even those I have other disagreements with.

[Tiruin]

For the record, I value you as a player, and your character as an ally. The same goes for everyone else, even those I have other disagreements with.

I thought we all agreed on all that and were more having a tussle over words You are pretty much to me.

Also I did miss a lot in hindsight X_X sorry for all that!

Piecewise: Is it possible to requisition some kind of communication for everyone? All the discussion just reminded me of the primary problem that was had in WWI/II: Communication. Because it seems the current methods are one-way receiver radios (given the Commander's equipment), equipment like these or otherwise can act as localized communication devices, with the Commander's equipment being the long range radio to home base.

[Ozarck]

Accepted. Tank you for being kind and letting me vent. It's been a long week, and i am very tired.

Winston got the radio and the rest of Joan's stuff. Alice got in touch with Winston, and Bone, and found out the plane had no weapons.

this is from the short turn. Looks liek the radio works, since alice and Wninston can communicate, and alice has contacted "bone" Who, I assume is the commander.

here is the description of the base at teh end of the turn in which the bomb goes off

The fireball dies almost as fast as it started and the air is sucked back into the void with a thunder clap. In the aftermath, half the base is a sea of flame and half crushed buildings, a scene of hellish ruins strewn with burnt bodies.

here is the description in the OP of the secrecy of our organization. This answers a question raised before about dog tags, or other identifiable items:

Our actions are secret, by and large, the sort of thing no one will ever know of. And I won't try to con you into the vain hope of trading your life for some tin medal. I offer you only this: Without men like you, we will lose this war and the world will be plunged into chaos. Carry that in your hearts and walk forward into hell with no regrets!

And leave your dogtags at the door.  If I can't identify your body, I don't care. And if I CAN, then you better still be shooting at some Krauts. The only way out of my brigade is when they ship you home in a shoe box!

I do not have an answer regardig the strange smocked officers with the stun rifles. But if memory serves: they were north of the hangar, west of where alice and the rest were, between those buildings. Ed has not been that far, and has no knowledge of them. I believe they were furhter distant than the last of our people in that direction, so they would not have been between any survivors and the truck. So noone is likely to have looted them.

Ed drove in along the north side of the supply depot. That's where Ed is driving out through. I understand that you want us to rescue Smith as well, but a) he put himself in that position for some reason, and b) I do not belive that Ed has had time to look around and see him through the fire, smoke and madness all around. He's been a little busy. But we will wait for him once we are off the base.

And the others can decide on whether to attack the command center or not.

[Tiruin]

!AliveJoan would be noting that there would be time to do so, especially at the speed of a truck. Shells are safe, munitions storage is on fire (a sense test could really be rolled for checking that), and y'all can quickly drive in, loot, check if the AA guns aren't being manned, and probably escape through the west side of the map alongside Alice.

Y'all can pretty much pick up Smith while backing up or doing a U-turn (takes just seconds for him to sprint if the truck goes on the north side of the supply depot--as in, past our dead bodies), as there isn't any exit from the bathroom areas or...how big that truck looks like.

...Also plant those explosives on our bodies please?

Ed drove in along the north side of the supply depot. That's where Ed is driving out through. I understand that you want us to rescue Smith as well, but a) he put himself in that position for some reason, and b) I do not belive that Ed has had time to look around and see him through the fire, smoke and madness all around. He's been a little busy. But we will wait for him once we are off the base

I'm wary of those 4 AA guns still unmanned, they could hinder Alice or destroy that plane outright, with the noise that'd be created.

So I'm betting there's more time. It doesn't take 5 minutes for Smith to sprint to the truck (costing physical but :V get a ration!), get that truck near ProbablyOfficerNazi bodies with strange rifles and loot em, and wipe out any remaining resistance with the benefit of surprise, and conjunctive firepower that is a whole truck's worth of many weapons.

[Madman198237]

The smocked lunatics, if they're dead, are DIRECTLY west of Joan's corpse and whatever's left of her team.

Not even very far, they're going to be right around that corner.

I recommend leading with a frag grenade, however. Those things hurt.

[Ozarck]

Yeah, pretty sure the objective here was info, remember? Papers or kidnapped people. Kids were secondary and blowing up the base was the exit action.

Scrolling back (to make a semi snarky comment), I stumbled upon this gem. So, I have to revise my claim that mission objective one is partially complete. Ed's gonna have to advocate for actually continuing the mission, since we have neither papers nor captives.

-sigh- off to edit my action.

edited.

[Egan_BW]

I'll recommend that someone grabs a smock-man corpse. Might be able to squeeze some intel out of them, even if they are dead. If any of them are still alive at this point, obviously try to capture one.

[piecewise]

Hey guys, I'm out of town right now at ASTRO, the radiation therapist conference.  I'll be back home on Wednesday. Sorry about the lack of posts but this thing goes from like 7 in the morning till 5 at night and then there are dinners with vendors and all sorts of crap. Won't have any real time and have no access to my map making software.

[Madman198237]

That is fine.

Enjoy your conference.

[Radio Controlled]

Oh no, fancy food with people trying to cozy up to you to sell you stuff? Poor thing 

Don't worry, we'll hold down the fort, you have fun sitting through endless presentations and stuffing your face.

(I suddenly feel like searching for a live stream of the event and a hearty game of spot-the-skeleton.)

[Ozarck]

Two weeks late to join at the beginning of Chalice, and i notice that the gangs have formed:
There's random gang one, random gang two, and
Radio, Pancaek, syvarris, Egan, and Nikitian.

now, do I join and tag along with the Juggernaut?
Join another faction and prepare for the inevitable steamrollering?
PTW?
Nothing?

I think if i joined I'd probably go with the juggernaut and make a completely useless character. It's worked out so far in this game.

[Radio Controlled]

Just do what I do, play a character that doesn't really know what's going on and bumble your way through. S' pretty fun. And with a little luck you, too, can explode your own eyeballs on your very first turn and form a little club with nik 

[piecewise]

Two weeks late to join at the beginning of Chalice, and i notice that the gangs have formed:
There's random gang one, random gang two, and
Radio, Pancaek, syvarris, Egan, and Nikitian.

now, do I join and tag along with the Juggernaut?
Join another faction and prepare for the inevitable steamrollering?
PTW?
Nothing?

I think if i joined I'd probably go with the juggernaut and make a completely useless character. It's worked out so far in this game.

I dunno if it will be a steam rolling. So far Sy's team has succeeded in gunning a few people down and getting shot. One of the other teams summoned an alien demon tiger and it has been slaughtering ever since.

[Egan_BW]

I blame syv's wordlist. Would be much better if we had a bunch of ornate and flesh and wings and feathery. ^_^