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[Ghazkull]

...so it wasn't one of the boxers pulling out a knife, it's some random person coming in from the sidelines and punching one of the boxers. Or pulling out a gun, I guess, or started punching someone but didn't know that their fist had explosives embedded in it. Or maybe I guess one of the boxer's sister or something. Or maybe somebody was over being a janitor and accidentally pointed their broom, which was, unknown to them, a sniper rifle, at one of the boxers. Still a problem here. Why didn't she get brushed off the same way I had been?

And for a different matter... Acter's entire goal in the Gambit was to get the others to leave the Acterians alone. That has now happened, albeit due to Kol going completely batshit crazy. And neither Phal nor Lu is getting the worship they wanted.

Okay the boxer comparison was perhaps not good.
Lets say you guys would play poker instead, and the consorts being your actual wives. Now if you win your wife gets richer too, if you lose she loses out two. If both of you play she can have influence int he poker game and make sure that you win. However if she is not in the poker game she is not supposed to interfere.

If i walk into said poker game and suddenly throw down a hand of cards and say "I win." that action would by all rationality be ignored, because i'm not an official player in that game. However if your wife who hasn't entered the game personally, somehow manages to nab a card and hand it over to you and people notice it, that would be an action that would be considered cheating. Thus both of you would be thrown out of the game right? Thats what happened there.

In short you were disqualified before you could win.

______________________

@Jerick, you are ignoring the cards which allow exiting a gambit early, or the simple fact of playing the long game (aka playing less relevant cards just to buy time), bringing in other players to help you out adn that draws are not not a thing, but a thing in the way that you dont think its a thing...okay that was confusing.

Draws exist in one fashion: stalemate. The gambit continues on with no one gaining the upper hand. For that you don't need to play more cards, you just keep it in a place of suspension until you get better cards or find a way to leave.

There is more than enough room for discussion and politics. What the game discourages however is concensus and compromise.
So far Gambits have ended rapidly after one or two turns because either people completely over-committed and thus escalated or were unwilling to continue a gambit they couldn't win at a given point. However nothing speaks against keeping a gambit in infinite suspension (that is if you have the cards to keep it going), an enforced stalemate until you can twist the situation to your advantage. There is more than enough cards which will work towards that goal (most prominently Obelisk when attached to a Character).
You are gods after all, you live for eternities. Conflicts are not measured in days or minutes but in millenia and aeons.

[NUKE9.13]

I mean, of the gambits in which one party has not immediately surrendered, 100% of the time the subtle approach has not worked. Rather, the person using the subtle approach has been fucked over just like everyone else.
And frankly, I don't see how it could work in the future. Jerick is absolutely right- I'm not sure how you pictured things playing out, but when dealing with real people, the only outcomes you are realistically going to get is rapid concession or a merciless slugfest. 

[Roboson]

Of course, by that same margin, 100% of people using the brute force approach got fucked over too. Upon entering a gambit, the only good way out is to win. But, as shown by how playing high powered cards allows the GM to bring in other players (including himself), playing strong cards is just as bad a way to go as playing weak cards.

 In the end, you're pretty fucked because those cards under the GM control are going to be the ones to win the gambits. The amount of extra GM stuff at play in this gambit is the equivalence of at least another player. Varlins tears getting to Kol, the tribe of madness going to the truth magi, the warningless lifeslayer than permanently crippled half the players, and the resulting great act gift parade. The reason Kol went crazy like this isn't even related to a player action, but a GM one. Thats why nothing made sense at first, because what happened would have been impossible for a player to pull off.

Honestly the best way to not get fucked is to get into gambits, and then let them run eternally. No winner, no loser, just ongoing cold war where neither side tries to win because its just not worth it.

[Jerick]

@Jerick, you are ignoring the cards which allow exiting a gambit early, or the simple fact of playing the long game (aka playing less relevant cards just to buy time), bringing in other players to help you out adn that draws are not not a thing, but a thing in the way that you dont think its a thing...okay that was confusing.

Draws exist in one fashion: stalemate. The gambit continues on with no one gaining the upper hand. For that you don't need to play more cards, you just keep it in a place of suspension until you get better cards or find a way to leave.

There is more than enough room for discussion and politics. What the game discourages however is concensus and compromise.
So far Gambits have ended rapidly after one or two turns because either people completely over-committed and thus escalated or were unwilling to continue a gambit they couldn't win at a given point. However nothing speaks against keeping a gambit in infinite suspension (that is if you have the cards to keep it going), an enforced stalemate until you can twist the situation to your advantage. There is more than enough cards which will work towards that goal (most prominently Obelisk when attached to a Character).
You are gods after all, you live for eternities. Conflicts are not measured in days or minutes but in millenia and aeons.

First off having cards that let you exit a gambit early doesn't actually fix anything, they are either common enough that they make gambits useless or they are rare enough that their existence doesn't effect the results of most gambits. And since gambits are so common, you can be part of more than one at once and it's expended when used it's basically pointless and has no overall effect on how the game is played.

Secondly, no. The game mechanics as described discourage stalemating gambits with impressive conviction. While a gambit is going on it effectively locks you out of interacting with the thing the gambit is centered around (assuming you don't want to escalate). It's already been shown that gambits can cover vast scopes and since any gambit you are part of is likely to be centered around something you care about you'll want it over quickly so you can go back to using acts on it again. Even if not centered on something you care about leaving a gambit open is a dangerous liability. Your opponent is drawing cards and the longer it goes on the more likely some one is going to drop something stupid and escalate the whole thing. Or other players could get tired of being unable to interact with the thing your having a gambit over.

Edit: Ninja'd

[NUKE9.13]

Of course, by that same margin, 100% of people using the brute force approach got fucked over too.

Right, but Ghaz was saying that using the subtle approach would prevent you from getting fucked. I was making the point that that is bullshit.

[Roboson]

Also it may have been addressed and I missed it, but it looks as though these two points weren't discussed.

Even-furthermore,

Now let me explain a few things here as to why some gods could penetrate through to him and others could not. First of all Acter never spoke to him while he was imprisoned.
Secondly Lu's servant can speak to him because Lu>Phalanalin>Ralkiesis>Acter.

In short, Phalanalins power simply outpowers Varalin, he is stronger period. The power of Lu again too outpowers Varalin. Unless they allow or want you to interfere with him, you cannot get into his head while he is under the influence of either.

If this is the case, no one should have been able to influence Kol because at the time Lu>everyone. The outside help (influence) should never have been able to get to Kol, even if Phalanin was the culprit because Lu>Phalanalin. (Sidenote, if someone was influencing him I should have been made aware, he's still my piece and just because he's chained doesn't mean I wouldn't get that info).

Even even furthermore: The gambit could not have ended this way. If someone did manage to get around the rules, it would have disastrous effects for that person because of my wording here on the final agreement of the terms:

I agree with the spirit of these agreements yes. [/color]

An attempt to go around the rules and cheat the agreement would have violated the spirit of the agreement. This would mean that, for Lu, the agreement wouldn't kick in. The deal would be off/ never get started. He agreed to the spirit of the agreement, and thus wouldn't be beholden to it if someone was going around the rules before the gambit could end and the agreement kicks in (like if someone was influencing Kol, even if that influence was technically allowable under the agreement). In otherwords, Lu is still in the gambit.

Edit: If I have the chronology right: We made the agreement, someone managed to go around the wording (but violated the spirit of the agreement), Kol gained his powers, the gambits ended (those last two can be switched without affecting my point here). Lu would have been released from the agreement before the gambit ended and before Kol gained his powers when someone violated the spirit of the agreement. During that period, Lu would be the only one remaining in the gambit.

It seems that the Magi shouldn't have been able to influence Kol (even if Nuke inadvertently let the magi into the prison, which it appears he overtly didn't) due to Lu's influence > others, due to him being the strongest god at the time. As well as the idea that my contention over the wording of the agreement led me to only agree to the spirit of the agreement, which we now see was nonexistant. I'm not argueing that I didn't agree, as we all did, but the way I put it should have prevented this outcome. No spirit = no agreement from Lu, which means no draw. I know it's a wording technicality and an accident, but it happened.

[NUKE9.13]

...:/
You keep saying I broke the spirit of the agreement. But there was no agreement for me to break. Like I said, if it were possible to break the agreement before agreeing to it, Lu broke it first by sending in his Knight (violating the no-High-Profile-cards rule).

[Ghazkull]

Look i am not even going to argue over this anymore, this has gone on for four/five pages now?

If you(you being no one in particular but a general adress to all of you) feel like i am intentionally screwing you over, if you feel that i am not impartial enough as GM, there is no point in continuing to play.
I am confused as to the utter distrust i have recieved here from several players.

I mean clearly this is not a game for everyone and Godhood games by their very nature are very much reliant on storytelling and fiat by the GM, to sew your actions together and create a living, breathing world out of it. Pantheon for me has always been about the worldbuilding and storytelling, about creating a myth-complex not unlike greek or norse myths.
At no point is any of the stuff i write done with the intent of discomifiting, disadvantageing or ridiculing any of you, the players. I take what i am given by you, and try to as "realistically" as possible put it all together in a living, evolving world. A world with characters with their own motivations, their own agendas, hope and dreams. To not have them act on their own would make them liveless cardboard cutouts.

Of course by that very design, we leave a vision of Godhood games where everything conforms with the players wills and wishes, we leave the sandboxy and the putty and the world will naturally begin to struggle against you, work against you and fight against you. You are no longer an abrahamic god but closer to one out of greek or norse sagas. You can be outright defeated, beaten back and fucked over by beings other than the player gods, your very actions can have adverse effects, unintended effects and might not work out at all like you want to.

That in itself changes the concept many might have of how such a game is supposed to work.
That being said, the entire game becomes just an aggravating, tedious and insulting thing if you think that i am being intentionally a dick to you, if you dislike the way the general game-design works or simply the way i run it. In which case it would be better for your nerves, my nerves and our simultaneous enjoyment, time saving and simple aggravation avoiding, if you left it.
I have explained my reasoning with the entire Gambit and its gonna stand as it stands, if you simply can't accept it, i kindly ask you to leave the game.
and with that i am done for the day...this entire mess is exhausting as fuck.

[Roboson]

I'm saying that in intentionally going around the rules and doing what you did, violates the spirit of the agreement in that it means there is no spirit when the bargain is struck. Its not that you acted beforehand, thats fine, its that because you did so with the intention of getting around the agreement and locking us into it so we couldn't change it, it changed the spirit of the agreement.

The action is fine, the agreement wasn't broken, but you broke the spirit of it by subverting it and using it as a tool for your advancement, which is not what the agreement stood for and what Lu agreed to.



Ninja'd by Gm, so it doesn't matter anymore.

[Glass]

I repeat: Immortal, powerful, yet limited in ways we don't understand, and full of mistakes.

Note to self, do NOT give immortal beings from B12 access to planetoids or other places in which life can be tortured.

Im just waiting for the real crapsack to begin. Have you ever read the first Pantheon Game? Now that was grimdark...i loved it. Maybe (in all probability) its just me but most games i gm turn out to be rather grimdark and miserable for everyone involved.

Hell i turned a Girls and Panzer Game into what amounted to kursk levels of destroyed tanks and little girls bleeding out in half-destroyed tanks while their comrades grimly continue firing even as their armor is pounded to hell and their engines catch fire.

So its less of a B12 thing as far more that you made the mistake of joining one of my games XD

Ghaz, you have said that you tend to make things pretty grimdark. It has felt to multiple of us that you have been deliberately twisting the game toward this end. I'm making a last action, and then I'm out.

[Madman198237]

Ghaz, ultimately what has happened is you've blindsided every player in the game with rules they didn't know existed for actions they didn't, apparently, understand. They did not know that their actions would, or even could, affect things as they did, and as a result they've lost everything, every plan, and, frankly, most everyone has lost the will to play.

And you can't say the game isn't for them, or that the system works fine, the system only works if the players know enough of the rules to play.

As of now, you're losing players because, to us, it seems like you're railroading people to a destination they don't get to choose, which is the entire point of a sandbox, especially a god game. Either that or the penalties of failure (And/or lack of understanding of the vague rules) are going to be really, incredibly harsh.

Maybe this is the kind of game you wanted to play. If so, well, it was very much not clear. Someone, like me, stepping in with no prior experience in this sort of game should've been able to pick up on the fact that you wanted EVERYTHING ruled by gambits, with gods rising and falling left and right. However, the OP seems like it's this neat new mechanic you wanted to try out, like it's going to be different because there won't be as MUCH destruction and laying-waste-to-all by Gods throwing around Acts.

I'm going to leave as well. I can't see any future to a game where you've alienated the player base this much, nor would I want to keep playing with new players, if you even attract any after the saltstorm.

I think the lesson is that if you want a story, share your goals with your players, at least in the type of game where the players build the story, rather than just driving down the path. In this sort of game you can't railroad the players, there's no REASON for them to be so corralled. It's just going to offend people that in the sandbox they don't get to build a sandcastle like they want, they get a template and that's it.

[Roboson]

I too am out. The rules are unclear and the punishment for not understanding them (which is impossible because we weren't told) is beyond harsh. Complete destruction of pretty much everything in the main theater, as well as a permanent debuff, pretty much makes it as though the first 5 turns didn't happen. Not to mention that none of the players who got bitchslapped can ever really recover. Furthermore, the actions of the Magi shouldn't have occurred. It violates the rules of power, the directive given to it, and (what I thought to be) the spirit of the game. No player could have broken the system in this way, and no player can fix it. And if what we do doesn't matter and there's nothing we could do even if it did, what's the point?


So, despite this being my favorite forum game in a long time, I'm out.

[micelus]

I really like your storytelling and Pantheon in general, but with this many players quitting, I don't think this game can continue running. Sorry Ghaz :/

[AbstractTraitorHero]

fucking dammit. So I have one choice now really that I can do  and that is follow acter becuase Varalin wouldent just abandon him to his death.

I dont even want to leave the game but it looks like its dying and I cant really do anything other then go down with the ship and suicide with acter agasint Kol. I kinda want to continue playing but Varalin just in her current state is icly put down a one way street towards death becuase even if she broke down here. She would know that acter was murdered by Kol next turn and as such would either 1.Kill herself since her only friend just died. 2. Destroy the isle of passion and ruthlessly rush at Kol until she was dead.

[Glass]

Don't worry about 2. I think Madman said he was going to do that part.

Also, something about locking Kol in the sun.

As for 1... you'd be in good company. Lu just did it, anyway.