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[Glass]

This is a false equivolence entirely.

Varalin did none of this and it was obvious from the start that she was on his side.

1.I showed him my love and remorse in my emotions. it is more than just saying. I showed him it pure and filtered only enough so that someone wouldn't go insane from it. He could tell it was genuine.
2.You are wrong I can reach Kol by your own wording. When You had the tears of varalin inside the same place that he was in. It revealed he was in the cave as well. Meaning that my second action and the tears of varalin action would have affected him. Hell, my second action affects all acterians. I said regardless of basically anything. If they were on the surface varalin made sure to effect them.
3.Acter Interacted with Kol
4.The content of my actions overall explicitly affect Kol and it was my every intention for him to be affected by these actions. Every acterian effected by these actions. If this was not the case I should have been informed that my action would not have affected Kol whatsoever.
5. You still have not explained in any way that Kol could know what was said at the hall. ((Point conceded if someone did really show him))

I also agree with a lot of the below points.
Not ghaz's point.

Also. No. They were not touched with anythig equivacle to mind altering drugs. It was emotion. Feeling. Something made clear and real that they would understand.

Furthermore. Yes he was kept sane. You litterally said so in the post that he was drinking from the tears of varalin that was what kept him sane,

OK, guys. Let's take this one step at a time and let Ghaz catch up. It gets really, REALLY frustrating to be the only person on your side, it's only worse if the other side won't let you keep up.


Trust me, my confrontational Arms Race habits have taught me this firsthand.


To be more clear: Please just stop posting until Ghaz catches up.

*facepalm*
NO POSTING PAST THIS POINT, PEOPLE

[AbstractTraitorHero]

Ive been trying to post that for minutes and kept getting ninjaed.

[Ghazkull]

XD no problem madman i am still vaguely keeping up with explaining my reasoning here.

Okay now then:

1) If someone broke the agreement, that should be visable. It was a binding agreement in a powerful holy place.

2) Kol shouldn't be mad at me. Even if he's pissed that I'm allowing other gods to talk to him, that was done to secure his release (which would be something he wanted).

3) Kol really shouldn't be omnipotent. Reguardless of everything else, he shouldn't be. If he got the lifeslayer card played on him, fine, but he should only have to work with the information he has IC.

4) If someone played the lifeslayer card, then the gambit would have ended immediately and our deal wouldn't have happened, and the backlash wouldn't have happened.

Okay where to begin:

First just for making this clear: omnipotence/=omniscience. I was talking about omniscience, as you all probably were, but omnipotence, is being all-powerful and omniscience is being all-seeing. But yeah thats just nitpicking so ignore this, this is just for future reference.
Moving on answering questions:

1.The thing is, no-one directly broke the agreement. They broke it yes, but in a way that is basically circumventing Ceredirons proclamations in a rather clever way...which i won't iterate here. Rest assured however that it has been done and legally done. I leave it to the relevant player(s) to reveal or not reveal themselves and or their methods.

1,2, and 3 basically all hang together. He had help from outside. That help gave him information he lacked before, information that made him very, very angry, if we ignore that he was angry hateful and mad and had spend literal centuries in a dark cave all because of gods using him as a plaything, the further information that Lu was the evil satan god, didn't help things. (he didn't know that before you know...) Basically by this point his anger is undirected it is just a general hate towards the gods, adding to that that he has become an avatar of his combined species feeling of absolute pissed-offness his very being and character changed with his transformation. He is no longer just Kol, he is the literal avatar of the anger of an entire species...expect mood changes.

4. Here it gets kinda philosophical. As GM i obviously have to establish a timeline, a chronology in which order things happen, in which events transpire. Lifeslayer wasn't played. I have mentioned before that escalation will cause cards to be played without any players doings, in this case Lifeslayer. (although it could have almost been the Apocalyptic). Lets skip over the entire sophistry of the word immediately, things happening chronologically or things being able to happen simultaneously at the same time or not at the same time. The thing is no matter whether it happened before your draw or during your draw, there was no Winner. Lifeslayer is the gambit ending card. Someone needs to have won after that or not.

Literally all of that should have been told to us. If Varalin couldn't put points into the gambit, then that should have either not have happened (like when people tried to talk to Kol, precedent) or should have backfired on her.

Was told to you, literally in OOC and in game, that it is not allowed, that doing so again would have severe penalties and that only this single time she got her act back. I never said that said actions would not work, only that they would carry extreme penalties with them: aka Lifeslayer. It did backfire on her, it also backfired on everyone else.
The concep tof Escalation knows no allies here. Everyone gets equally screwed.

Hypocrisy much?

I don't see any Hypocrisy. Its magical drug water. Unless Varalin is constantly pouring her very own essence into it and tries to directly influence folk with it, its just magical drug water making them feel better, that doesn't give her extra influence.

That aside i had to explain away Kol not simply dying away in imprisonment in total darkness, since Phalanalin never really gave any specifics as to how the lad was supposed to survive. And since between turns he would be imprisoned for gods know how long i needed to find something that would sustain him during that time. Varalins Tears seemed like a nice touch at that time. It does not change any of the written however.
If he had eaten the Fruits from the three trees instead he wouldn't have fallen into Lu's influence either.

((XD and three ninjaes again...okay lets see)

[Madman198237]

"All undertakings made in the hall were unbreakable."

Undertaking, definition:

1.a formal pledge or promise to do something.


So, who didn't actually give their formal oath (AKA promise. Synonyms are synonyms)

[Glass]

you can't reach Kol because he is imprisoned

Kol however was imprisoned in the vile darkness undying and almost driven to madness, were it not for a single being. In the deepest recesses of the dark caves he had been chained to the rocks feeding of the thin trickle of Varalins Tears that allowed him to subsist, but soon after his imprisonment when he fell asleep a dim presence appeared. She had been beautiful. Beautiful beyond measure, and somehow in the vile cold darkness she gave him warmth...she had been so bright. And she told him to hold out, to wait for her coming. For she would save him and then would show him the beauty of the light and of the outside. And so he held out.

Hypocrisy much?

I don't see any Hypocrisy. Its magical drug water. Unless Varalin is constantly pouring her very own essence into it and tries to directly influence folk with it, its just magical drug water making them feel better, that doesn't give her extra influence.

Who said anything about influence?

Tears streamed down veralin's face as she finished giving a choked sob of happiness that was audible for all to hear in the Isles.

The tear's of Veralin grow in strength now making rivers gentle and contained across the underground and landscape clean and fresh curing wounds and ailments and sometimes even curing loneliness by the genuine warmth that will fill one's body upon drinking it. The tears are now of joy. They are of love. And they are for all to enjoy and for her acterians to recover with and find joy. Real joy healing those they love and drinking and knowing that no matter who they are someone does care about them.

[Roboson]

Can you explain how someone could have influenced Kol? He's my piece after all.

[Ghazkull]

(answering as fast as i can...)

1.I showed him my love and remorse in my emotions. it is more than just saying. I showed him it pure and filtered only enough so that someone wouldn't go insane from it. He could tell it was genuine.
2.You are wrong I can reach Kol by your own wording. When You had the tears of varalin inside the same place that he was in. It revealed he was in the cave as well. Meaning that my second action and the tears of varalin action would have affected him. Hell, my second action affects all acterians. I said regardless of basically anything. If they were on the surface varalin made sure to effect them.
3.Acter Interacted with Kol
4.The content of my actions overall explicitly affect Kol and it was my every intention for him to be affected by these actions. Every acterian effected by these actions. If this was not the case I should have been informed that my action would not have affected Kol whatsoever.
5. You still have not explained in any way that Kol could know what was said at the hall. ((Point conceded if someone did really show him))

Also. No. They were not touched with anythig equivacle to mind altering drugs. It was emotion. Feeling. Something made clear and real that they would understand.

Furthermore. Yes he was kept sane. You litterally said so in the post that he was drinking from the tears of varalin that was what kept him sane,

Ah i see a major misunderstanding here: that presence which kept him sane, that person he saw there was not Varalin, it was Armiles. She gave him the strength to survive. There was however no mention of sanity. SUBSISTING means staying alive, not staying sane. Holding on does not mean staying sane, it means not giving up. He held out because he expected Armiles at any moment to come and save him. Again through outside help.

Now let me explain a few things here as to why some gods could penetrate through to him and others could not. First of all Acter never spoke to him while he was imprisoned.
Secondly Lu's servant can speak to him because Lu>Phalanalin>Ralkiesis>Acter.

In short, Phalanalins power simply outpowers Varalin, he is stronger period. The power of Lu again too outpowers Varalin. Unless they allow or want you to interfere with him, you cannot get into his head while he is under the influence of either.

Acter interacted with Kol before he was imprisoned and deliberately hidden from Divine Influence. And even then he had no possibility to influence him, as he had been already claimed by Lu by that point.

The water had a sweet calming effect helping to soothe minds. it certainly would not cure insanity but it would help alleviate it and make life better hopefully with such a clean and fresh source of water and the slight calming down of insanity. It is made to look natural and not obviously Divine. They will not see the water coming from the sky.

That is the quote of your Tears. Its water with mind altering effects, nowhere did it mention being some divine influenced feelings. Thus i treated it as magical drug-water. If you wanted it to be something else you would have needed to make it more clear.

As to number one: So? Again as mentioned three times before, just because you feel genuine remorse for the events that have transpired and that you genuinely love the acterians DOES NOT MEAN that they have to forgive you or love you. They have gone way beyond that, especially Kol.

(this is just great i finish a post and three more crop up XDDD)

[Glass]

Ghaz, if you took my Weaver that I put to lead the surface Acterians I made - who were completely separate from the underground insanity - and had it be breaking the promise, that A. happened before the promise was even started, and B. is taking the whole thing out of context.

[Ghazkull]

((okay last batch for the night because its 3 am over here. I will answer those three posts and the rest will have to wait for tomorrow...))

@Madman: Again sorry, i cannot tell, you have to figure it out yourself, i can only give you my word as GM that the action was (to my understanding and some pondering) valid.

@Glass: you talked about influence, you are talking about influence right now. If putting the feeling of joy into ones mind where one wasn't before, if putting the knowledge that somebody loves you into ones head when there wasn't such knowledge before, what is it then but influencing ones mind. And the feeling that somebody out there loves you, in combination with the visions of Armiles might as well have influenced him into thinking Armiles cared about him...

@Roboson: Well technically there is only one person who can influence him apart from you while he is imprisoned...i let you figure it out.

((okay and with that i bid you a good night and we can continue this on the next day...))

Fine fine Glass will be answered before i leave:
The circumvention/breaking of the Oath was deliberate and intentional so no your weaver is irrelevant to this.

[AbstractTraitorHero]

I am hating everything right now. becuase I have to try to debate with a messed up labtop since i dropped it this morning ;-;

Lets just. Try to compiile all information guys relating to Varalin. Kol. The acterians and what they could have seen. So we understand everything and can come up with an argument tommorow. Becuase I am not particularly keen on having Varalin suicide tonight.

[Glass]

...you did make the revived Acterians surface Acterians, right? Because that was what they were meant as.

[AbstractTraitorHero]

I have no idea what I can even do on Varalin now. Right now I can only think of her immediatly confronting kol or ending her own life.

[Madman198237]

Hold off on actions for now, everyone. Especially the suicide-inclined.

Let's get a definitive end to our disagreement. Tomorrow, anyway.

[AbstractTraitorHero]

Yeah. I still have no idea what to do now.

[Madman198237]

Spoiler: This turned out to be really long, so have a spoiler for your sanity. (click to show/hide)

Whoever interfered should not have been capable of doing so. There was clear precedent precluding such actions, in the case of Glass, and no way they should've been able to FIND the prison, barring action by NUKE.

Action by NUKE would'be been DIRECTLY contrary to the obvious and direct acceptance/agreement to/swearing of the terms of the agreement put forth in IC.

Jerick and the rest of his House should be, like ATH or myself, be unable to interfere with the Gambit and Kol, since they are unable to find Kol and doing so would be against the rules of Gambits.

As mentioned, we believe that ATH should not have affected this Gambit with her actions, since she was acting on her own, not interfering between the three that were actually part of the Gambit. What she did pertained only to herself, not to the others involved.

This is further supported by Armiles inability to find Kol. If the knight couldn't achieve it, a low power card shouldn't have been able to do so either.

As for NUKE, he couldn't play a card there, the gambit was over when he agreed that Kol would be released and he surrendered.

This action would violate the "We shall not interfere with the worship of the others, nor cause or allow others to do so. That is, we shall not attempt to limit, modify, or expand the worship any of us receive, except in the case that said worship becomes extinct, in which case we shall reconvene to discuss a manner in which it can be rekindled." clause, regardless of its (Disputed) legality in other ways.

Totalled up objections that we feel either haven't been answered or haven't been presented, from a couple of us on Discord. The general idea is that we don't think any of this can have legitimately happened within the rules of the game. If a secret action has the power to destroy so many players' will to continue in the game, it ought to at least be revealed so they/we/everyone can be assured of its legitimacy.

This obviously still requires some debate, but the consensus is that we want this latest turn adjusted, to either let the gambits continue unimpeded, or to end them without the lunacy that is Kol, the half-brain-dead insane MORTAL getting to rip the power from the very being who created him. Let alone the OTHER beings, who were even STRONGER. Especially if the gods did not involve themselves (Through the use of their own cards) in the gambit directly, which seems, to me, to be a prerequisite for Lifestealer damaging them.

P.S. I am still unconvinced about the amount that the puny mortal COULD see, staring through some sort of magical means into the void, at the hall that I built to be separate from reality itself. This seems like precisely the sort of mind-fragmenting soul-destroying life-ending stuff us gods have collectively inflicted on the Acterians for eons.