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Author Topic: The Surge- MASSIVE ENERGY AXE Souls alike.  (Read 15691 times)

Neonivek

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Re: The Surge- MASSIVE ENERGY AXE Souls alike.
« Reply #30 on: May 20, 2017, 04:56:16 am »

Well it should be no mystery that Souls-likes originally started as horror games. Which typically use the lack of control as a way to amp up the horror.

It is why characters move fairly slow and attack very slowly. (The exception being Blood Bourn for attacks... mostly)

It is also why the majority of Souls-like games have a horror bend (including all the Souls games AND Blood Borne)

For me personally what kills the games for me is a combination of feeling like I am fighting in pudding... and how enemy designs are built because of it (That and I hate the magic systems).

It is interesting that the moment a game came out that actually gave you decent movement speed that people questioned whether it was a souls-like.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2017, 05:00:16 am by Neonivek »
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Egan_BW

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Re: The Surge- MASSIVE ENERGY AXE Souls alike.
« Reply #31 on: May 20, 2017, 06:11:34 pm »

I would describe souls series combat as "precise", the opposite of clunky. I don't play them because they're hard either, I play them because they're good. And I strongly suspect that most people who play them do so for the same reason.
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NullForceOmega

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Re: The Surge- MASSIVE ENERGY AXE Souls alike.
« Reply #32 on: May 20, 2017, 08:24:04 pm »

I finally got past Cerberus, Got the MASSIVE ENERGY AXE, and gods is it awesome.  It seems to be slightly faster than other heavy weapons, but I'm not certain of that.  It hits like a nuclear weapon, and actually creates ranged energy waves with certain combos (and adequate energy reserves.)  Story got very interesting after that, lots of strange happenings, looking forward to the last area and the final boss.
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Flying Dice

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Re: The Surge- MASSIVE ENERGY AXE Souls alike.
« Reply #33 on: May 20, 2017, 09:18:29 pm »

As far as defining the genre, then we get into what exactly is souls doing that's different?  Difficulty and trial-and-error?  Roguelikes have been around for decades.  The combat system?  The Surge is kind of fun but when I play it I'm just further convinced that what I actually enjoyed about dark souls was the multiplayer.  Semi-asynchronous multiplayer was what actually made dark souls special for me.  The combat was barely passable and clunky as fuck, lots of gimmicks and gotcha bullshit further complicated by bugs and engine jankiness.

You can't really just call it trail and error. Plenty of games today have that, it's just their trial and error is frustrating in a way that doesn't leave you feeling good when you've succeeded.

But that's basically exactly how I feel when I play dark souls.  There's never satisfaction when I win, because inevitably the way to win was some dumb gimmick that trivializes a fight that's otherwise almost impossible.  Gwyn was like fighting a brick wall until I put on golem armor and ironskin and just spammed parry in his face.

I only like the single-links, though I haven't gotten a heavy yet, missed the big hammer in the underground and can't go back to where it was.  Dual-link feels horrible and one-hand is boring.

Also that song is really getting on my nerves.

I don't like being the guy who says people are having fun wrong, but almost all Souls-like games I've played have been bad clunky games that people play as a statement about what kind of gamer they are.

So basically you're saying because you ruined the fun for yourself by resorting to cheese instead of getting good, the games aren't fun? Well no shit. You can beat anything and everything without resorting to cheese, and if you're not willing to try it's probably just a case of mismatch and the games aren't for you. Pretty much everyone has a couple bosses and sequences that push their shit in. Some people bitch out and summon for them, some people resort to cheese every time, some people cheese for progression then do them legit in subsequent NGs, some people git gud right then and there. Cheesing and summoning inherently destroy all the fun and emotion of what should be tough, elegant fights, reducing them to farces. This is not a difficult or unique concept to grasp. Trading flow, feeling, and fun for progression is the age-old cost of cheesing single-player progression in any game.

Yeah, DaS and DaS 2 were pretty damn wonky in hindsight. But they're still charming and fun despite that. (also kinda suggests you haven't played anything more recent, BB and DaS 3 were both very fluid and relatively unbuggy, From netcode aside) Also kinda lulzy that you finger the multiplayer as your favorite bit when Souls multiplayer is without exception the clunkiest cheesiest element of the series. I think you're projecting a lot--Souls fans (that is, people who don't do one playthrough of NG so they can say they did) don't really give a shit about the games' reputation beyond memes. We love them because they push for thoughtful, skillful play and have enough in the way of build paths and playstyles that you can keep going for hundreds of hours without getting bored. And, yes, because they're hard as balls at points and will gladly fuck you over if you get lazy or sloppy.

The list of games that have provoked genuine, strong emotions in me is damned short, and Souls games are on there for a reason: the immense satisfaction and pride you get whenever you overcome a challenge. And that never really changes. You feel it the first time you beat a tutorial boss, and you feel it when you complete a self-imposed challenge runs with hundreds of hours behind your belt. It's a bit like hyper-optimizing grindfest games like Disgaea, except that instead of min-maxing stats you're doing it to your muscle memory, reflexes, and inner rhythm. Purely in terms of getting into the zone, I have a hard time thinking of any game that has pushed me to that point as effectively or as intensely as a Souls game.

And that's just the mechanical side of things. The environments are gorgeous, the storytelling is wonderfully subdued and well-integrated in a time of incredibly unsubtle and straightforward stories. The characters do more with a handful of lines than many games manage with dozens of hours of cutscenes.

Yeah, there are the occasional morons who use them like certain other types of people buy and display leather-bound books that they'll never actually read or think about. Why are you paying any attention to them?

That's the impression I get from Surge, but I'm concerned enough about the short lifespan and low replay value, so not gonna drop cash for now.
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Neonivek

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Re: The Surge- MASSIVE ENERGY AXE Souls alike.
« Reply #34 on: May 20, 2017, 11:44:04 pm »

I would describe souls series combat as "precise", the opposite of clunky. I don't play them because they're hard either, I play them because they're good. And I strongly suspect that most people who play them do so for the same reason.

They are both in a weird paradoxical way. Controls are tight but the way the character actually moves is clunky.

It is why I am interested in Souls-like games that have a bit less "URF!" to them.
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Cthulhu

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Re: The Surge- MASSIVE ENERGY AXE Souls alike.
« Reply #35 on: May 21, 2017, 05:01:36 pm »

Furi was the game that hit closest to perfect for me as far as feeling good when you win goes. 
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SquatchHammer

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Re: The Surge- MASSIVE ENERGY AXE Souls alike.
« Reply #36 on: May 21, 2017, 07:19:52 pm »

Right now I am just doing the Ring around the Rosie in the first area just to collect and upgrade as much as I can before facing the first boss. I feel like I am just being a sadist and saying peoples limbs are mine now or when I leave and enter the Ops Center I say "I'm going shopping" or "Look what I got from shopping honey!".
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Ygdrad

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Re: The Surge- MASSIVE ENERGY AXE Souls alike.
« Reply #37 on: May 22, 2017, 09:06:13 am »

Right now I am just doing the Ring around the Rosie in the first area just to collect and upgrade as much as I can before facing the first boss. I feel like I am just being a sadist and saying peoples limbs are mine now or when I leave and enter the Ops Center I say "I'm going shopping" or "Look what I got from shopping honey!".

And then, like me you realize after beating the first boss and toying around in the second area for a while that bosses give better versions of their weapon if you beat them a specific way and the completionist or perfectionist in you forces you to start over, throwing away all of that framing/grinding. By the way, the way to beat the first boss to get the better weapon is by never letting it knock itself down with its own missiles and beating on its legs when it tries to stomp to do it instead. This can get aggravating quick because the boss will jump away from you before launching missiles and will sometimes land so close to a wall that the missiles blow up on the wall behind it and knock it down, ruining it and forcing you to quit to menu and fight it again. Took me 12 tries before it didn't ruin the requirement on its own. Overall I like the game although I find most enemies to be more easily cheesable than those of dark souls when being hyper-aggressive and opening every fight with a quick running or dodging attack with good stagger. Running and dodging attacks are always ultra-fast and get rid of the downsides of single rigs and heavy weapons which is usually a slow initial windup. <3 the P.A.X Imperator V2.0 weapon
« Last Edit: May 22, 2017, 09:15:36 am by Ygdrad »
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NullForceOmega

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Re: The Surge- MASSIVE ENERGY AXE Souls alike.
« Reply #38 on: May 22, 2017, 03:21:20 pm »

Completed the game, now I'm in NG+, obvious changes right off the bat are that instead of fighting a drone, you get jumped by a human (for me he had a dual-rigged weapon, the nasty set of white claws from the R&D section), a little while later I found another human opponent wearing the Bloody Proteus armor and carrying the unique variant of the plasma cutter single-rig, once defeated that enemy did not respawn.  Once I got to the factory I found ANOTHER enemy in Bloody Proteus armor, only this one was wielding a Bloodhound, and actually killed me a couple times.  So far so good tho', enemies deal massively higher damage and take far more hits, but as promised upgrading beyond Mk V is possible (and necessary, unless you're one of those hardcore guys who thinks the whole game should be done unarmored with the Reclaimed Piston.)

Just reached Rogue Process in NG+, and it is absolutely crushing me, I am objectively better prepared for this fight than I was last time I got here, but it's just too damn fast this time around (and all of it's attacks track, which is agony.)  I actually managed to reach stage two of the fight, and had the sucker down to about 25-30% health, and it suddenly does this spinning rush move that dealt out seven hundred damage from point-blank range.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2017, 06:54:42 pm by NullForceOmega »
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BlackFlyme

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Re: The Surge- MASSIVE ENERGY AXE Souls alike.
« Reply #39 on: May 24, 2017, 07:53:17 pm »

I done went and got all the achievements. It was an enjoyable game, though I have some minor gripes.

The game's a bit short.
Enemy variation, gear, and environmental designs are a bit lacking.
Was a little disappointed with the drone buddy. Though if you could talk to it, it would probably end up being an annoying little shit.

Combat's satisfying, even if it feels much more lethal than some other "Souls-likes". I feel like I died much more often than others, at least.
NG+ changing enemy spawns and such was something I liked.
I did like some of the characters, and the data logs helped flesh out the world.

Apparently, in the Black Cerberus boss fight:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I wonder if there will be DLC or anything. Some concepts were brought up but then never used again, like your Rig needing a battery or the main character's

I found the Twin-Rigged weaponry most enjoyable. The Firebug 2.0 carried me throughout most of the game.
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NullForceOmega

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Re: The Surge- MASSIVE ENERGY AXE Souls alike.
« Reply #40 on: May 28, 2017, 04:07:47 am »

So at this point I'm only missing two, maybe three of the weapons, I have all the armor, and am in NG++.  Currently running in a big path around the first area gathering enough scrap to upgrade every single piece of equipment up to Mk XI. 

Things I'm not happy about:

1 ) Enemy damage upgrade per '+' seems much higher than necessary, on the first run the damage you take is notable, but not instantly screwing you.  I realize that by NG++ you are supposed to have learned their patterns, and I have, but when one jumps me right as I'm entering an execution and deals out almost three hundred fifty damage, I just feel like I'm being beaten on for no reason.

2 ) Upgrade cost from previous max Mk to new base Mk feels a bit too high, it shouldn't take over one hundred thousand scrap to move one rank, at the beginning of a playthrough.

3 ) Rogue Process needs to stop turning to face the player in the middle of an attack animation.  No, I'm not talking about the animation having a turn in it, I'm talking about the 'base' position rotating to track Warren while the animation is playing.  I cannot even count the number of times I got killed trying to bring this thing down because it just decided, "That attack I was doing, the one that I started while facing away from you and that you were dodging actively?  Yeah, now I'm facing you, so just die now."

4 ) I WAS BORN, IN A PRISON.  In all seriousness, there isn't anything wrong with this song, and it fits the game to a 't', but I'm getting real sick of hearing it.

5 )  I need more content.  Much more content.  How about three or four big expansion style DLC that add new areas, new equipment (some of those weapon categories are looking a bit sparse), and some new quests.  That would be great please.

I like this game, and I am very happy with my purchase (extended periods of truly vile swearing and near explosive rage aside), so I want to see more and do more in it.  But I hope there are a couple of balancing passes to clean things up a bit.
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NullForceOmega

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Re: The Surge- MASSIVE ENERGY AXE Souls alike.
« Reply #41 on: May 31, 2017, 08:11:54 pm »

Sorry for the doublepost.

The first patch went live today, among the changes are fixes to enemy super armor, which was recovering faster than intended, so stunned enemies are a lot less likely to suddenly start hitting you in the middle of a combo now.  Also the implanted electrode implants have been assigned a five-use limit each, so they are no longer able to fuel infinite free heals.  Blocking has also been adjusted, now you can attempt to block any hit, but bigger hits cost more stamina.  The last biggie is adding some I-frames after execution animations, so if you do get locked up with a couple enemies you're a little more likely to live through it (but not much more likely, really).  Those are the biggies, there were some other fixes and tweaks to lots of things as well.
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NullForceOmega

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Re: The Surge- MASSIVE ENERGY AXE Souls alike.
« Reply #42 on: October 10, 2017, 03:24:39 pm »

I hate to do this, but triple post it is.

The first FREE DLC just dropped, it adds new elemental weapons on various enemies, haven't played yet (as it is currently updating) but I will report on my findings once I can.

Also, as a PSA there is an expansion DLC coming sometime this quarter which will add a new boss, new enemies, new armor and weapons...in a iron-maus theme park on the CREO factory grounds.  Silly sounding, but I am very excited to see what is in store.
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BlackFlyme

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Re: The Surge- MASSIVE ENERGY AXE Souls alike.
« Reply #43 on: October 10, 2017, 04:52:46 pm »

I wasn't actually expecting the game to get an expansion, to be honest.

Sounds pretty cool. I'll be sure to check it out as more info's released.
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NullForceOmega

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Re: The Surge- MASSIVE ENERGY AXE Souls alike.
« Reply #44 on: October 10, 2017, 06:48:00 pm »

Okay, got four of the five flame weapons and two of the five cryo weapons, haven't tried them all put here's what I've seen so far:

1 ) The fire weapons may be a bit overpowered honestly, their base damage isn't amazing and they don't scale well, but their energy gain is tremendous and they deal secondary heat damage that increases with each hit against an enemy.

2 ) SISTER 1/3 is still stupid.

3 ) Cryo weapons grant a passive health buff (10%) when equipped, but damage wise seem a bit meh, like the fire weapons they have pretty high energy gain tho'.

4 ) I hate SISTER 1/3 until the end of time.

5 ) The weapons are actually placed on respawning enemies, so if you miss one you can go back to get it, they seem pretty tame in enemy hands too (not that I got hit very many times).

As far as completely free DLC go, I think this one is pretty nice overall.

Edit: Okay, smashed the damned gantry and got the rest of the weapons, here are my revised thoughts:

Fire weapons: definitely a bit on the OP side, built around a super-aggressive playstyle, will heavily benefit people who want to deal tons of damage fast.

Ice weapons: I take back what I said about high energy gain, they're actually pretty weak on that front, these are geared for more reactive players, they don't put out much damage, but since they're mostly elemental it doesn't matter, the boost to health is nice.

I would actually consider changing from Judge 2.0 to the flame axe if not for the difficulty of carrying out executions with fire weapons.

Still a nice bit of DLC for the low-low cost of free, so no complaints.  Also, the enemies who are carrying these weapons will actually use healing implants if you give them a moment of breathing room, this cuts both ways as it gives you more opportunity to get your execution, but they also fight like Warren, so they can deal out some substantial hurt if you aren't on the ball.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2017, 09:43:08 pm by NullForceOmega »
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