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Which team did you play in the last game?

Glorious Arstotzka
- 17 (16%)
Glorious Moskurg
- 13 (12.3%)
Ingloriously Didn't Play
- 76 (71.7%)

Total Members Voted: 106


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Author Topic: Intercontinental Arms Race: Finale  (Read 599817 times)

NUKE9.13

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Re: Intercontinental Arms Race: Spring 1941 (Design Phase)
« Reply #4920 on: July 18, 2017, 02:18:49 am »

Sensei pretty much outright stated (in the discord) that you need to dedicate an entire revision to de-complexifying a thing. Replacing the weapons with our equivalents is probably allowed, but seriously upgrading anything is too much.
Quote from: Discord
Sensei - Last Sunday at 5:13 PM
You could try to improve the DE or just replace it with turbines, but you're probably going to want to deal with the [Complex] tag first
...
Sensei - Last Sunday at 5:15 PM
Just remember: Dealing with the [Complex] will eat a revision.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2017, 03:10:24 am by NUKE9.13 »
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Kashyyk

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Re: Intercontinental Arms Race: Spring 1941 (Design Phase)
« Reply #4921 on: July 18, 2017, 04:21:31 am »

I think the most likely thing to not happen in eS's revision will be the torpedo->missile mod. Otherwise it all seems very reasonable to do along with a Decomplex action
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RAM

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Re: Intercontinental Arms Race: Spring 1941 (Design Phase)
« Reply #4922 on: July 18, 2017, 04:30:07 am »

It is REALLY awkward to work based off of a partial conversation...

I like to think that we could have our engineers look over it and correct all the Can horribleness while keeping an eye out for speed improvements. We are working from designs here, so putting a different engine onto the drive shaft is probably not a big deal, upscaling the shaft and prop a touch ought not to be the all that horrifically arduous and ought to have massive proportional increases in load bearing compared to the actual change, what with benefiting from the area of a circle... Knocking the front and back turrets down from three guns to two, again, ought not be that horrific and ought to have noticeable weight savings. So long as we have speed enough to render the Vickies irrelevant to hunting down our fleets it would be helpful. I mean, ultimately, we are drawing up new plans, fabricating new fabricators, converting from horrible metrics to wonderful Metric.... It is a big job, but it is also an easy occasion to make small changes. Now, if our good engines are still worse than their bad engines, then we don'tt have a better engine so we can't just slot out one and slot in another. If our engine is significantly larger or requires significantly more ventilation or something, then, again, it would be beyond the scope of "do this AND remove complex". But if there are simple ways to get dramatic improvements then it should be relatively easy to achieve both objectives... And it should be pretty apparent that something is simple or not when you see the dimensions either do or do not fit within the space available. I mean, sure, maybe there is a pipe somewhere that is difficult to plot into a three-dimensional space or something, but, ehh, I like to think that our engineers have competent moments.
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NUKE9.13

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Re: Intercontinental Arms Race: Spring 1941 (Design Phase)
« Reply #4923 on: July 18, 2017, 04:50:36 am »

...I mean, yeah, I didn't quote the full conversation. I can if you want:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
I hope you enjoyed reading through all of that.

Quote
I mean, ultimately, we are drawing up new plans, fabricating new fabricators, converting from horrible metrics to wonderful Metric.... It is a big job, but it is also an easy occasion to make small changes.
It is a big job. And word of god has it, it's such a big job that we can't make any substantial changes. Putting our guns on it instead of theirs is obviously fine- I don't think we have a choice in the matter, actually- but upgrading the engines is a no.
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evictedSaint

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Re: Intercontinental Arms Race: Spring 1941 (Design Phase)
« Reply #4924 on: July 18, 2017, 02:52:01 pm »

We don't have deisel-electric engines, though?  Or did we steal the designs for that, too?  I'm confused as to what components are left out of the design and what are left in; I assumed replacing the foreign engines with our own engines was no different than replacing foreign guns with our own guns.

Either we got a new type of engine for absolutely free or we get to put in better engines for absolutely free.  Either is fine with me, honestly.

NUKE9.13

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Re: Intercontinental Arms Race: Spring 1941 (Design Phase)
« Reply #4925 on: July 18, 2017, 02:56:44 pm »

I think we got free engines, yeah.

Either that, or Sensei is gonna start the turn by writing "Forenia deploys their new Vodka-class Battleships... without any engines."
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NAV

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Re: Intercontinental Arms Race: Spring 1941 (Design Phase)
« Reply #4926 on: July 18, 2017, 02:56:58 pm »

Quote
Actually stealing a ship would have been too much for a small group of commandos, but Forenia now has plans enough for the Victoria to be built with its whole hull, armor, engines, and director system, but the guns will have to be Forenian Overcompensators and the Cannalan radar design isn't included.

We have the engines.
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evictedSaint

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Re: Intercontinental Arms Race: Spring 1941 (Design Phase)
« Reply #4927 on: July 18, 2017, 02:59:35 pm »

Alright, sweet.

This begs the question: why the *fuck* did Cannala put submarine engines on their pocket battleship?  I know they run the design philosophy of "design the current weapon with a weird quirk to make the next weapon easier" but it's still an odd choice.

Thing on the "To Do In Revision" list:
1) Steam Catapults
2) Better engines on Vodka/Storm Dragon
3) Radar targeting computer
4) Up-gunned Archer
5) Archer-Lander
6) Saltgrinder
7) ERA
8) Hanger Damage
« Last Edit: July 18, 2017, 03:04:16 pm by evictedSaint »
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NUKE9.13

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Re: Intercontinental Arms Race: Spring 1941 (Design Phase)
« Reply #4928 on: July 18, 2017, 03:05:48 pm »

Well, to be fair, diesel engines are the future- turbines are no longer used in serious warships, except for nuclear powered ones. It's more their design philosophy of "Design like it's the 21st century".
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Madman198237

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Re: Intercontinental Arms Race: Spring 1941 (Design Phase)
« Reply #4929 on: July 18, 2017, 03:09:44 pm »

Why is almost everything he posted there a naval design?

Oh yeah, it's because we're winning everywhere us.



OK, self-back-patting finished. Back racing for MAD.
I refer you all, again to the following:

Better idea: Re-equip the Victoria with our guns in the revision, and spend the design on a battleship the Cannalans can't match.
Here's the revision:
Quote from: Better Than Rum
UFN-BC-41 Vodka
The Victoria is, as per usual, somewhat....poorly made. In order to correct that, we take accurate measurements and use the proper bolts to remove the [Complex]ities of the design. Also, all Cannalan weapons and other pieces of equipment, such as the radar, are replaced with our equivalents as much as possible, to streamline training and such.
And then next turn we design the
Quote from: Saltmaker
UFN-BB-41 Victorious
This development of the Victoria turns that underengineered piece of Cannalan driftwood into a fighting ship. A true floating fortress if ever there was on, this ship is given a splinter-deck armor arrangement of deck armor capable of staving off an average 16-inch shell at maximum plunging penetration, a heavy citadel like the Victoria's, and a medium torpedo belt to keep the crappy Cannalan torpedoes off our ships. The hull is longer than the Victoria to improve speed, and the engines are our best engines ever produced, based around the Cataphract's propulsion system but improved in every conceivable way. The hull is both longer and wider (Due to the firepower upgrades) and the extra space is almost all used for additional engine horsepower. For firepower, the ship is re-equipped with three dual 390mm guns, controlled by a central director-firing system that acquires information both from a radar set and long-base rangefinders on the roof of every turret, in case of radar failure. A second radar system, optimized for detecting aircraft, is also provided. The ship carries 8 dual 100mm gun turrets as a dual-purpose antiaircraft/antiship weapon, has a massive number of antiaircraft guns of all our available calibers.

Mostly because it's basically everything we want (The revision, I mean) with everything the Cannalans never wanted us to have (The design)
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RAM

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Re: Intercontinental Arms Race: Spring 1941 (Design Phase)
« Reply #4930 on: July 18, 2017, 03:27:50 pm »

...I mean, yeah, I didn't quote the full conversation. I can if you want:
I hope you enjoyed reading through all of that.

Quote
I mean, ultimately, we are drawing up new plans, fabricating new fabricators, converting from horrible metrics to wonderful Metric.... It is a big job, but it is also an easy occasion to make small changes.
It is a big job. And word of god has it, it's such a big job that we can't make any substantial changes. Putting our guns on it instead of theirs is obviously fine- I don't think we have a choice in the matter, actually- but upgrading the engines is a no.
Thankyou! That added SO MUCH context! I am inclined to agree that that seems to be what Sensei was saying. I still wanna make a try at engine swapping though. I mean, if it is obviously not going to work then no, but if it has the same or less ventilation needs, the same or less space needs, then it should be possible to put in one instead of the other.

On the other hand, they DO have a diesel-electric engine, and they DO know that we have light battleship plans, and they also know that we also have a shiny-new cruiser, and that our destroyers are kind of sad, and that we rely upon large carriers...

Revision: Anti-torpedo rockets
The archers have never been great torpedo boats, so we put them in a dedicated defensive role by implementing modified SARUKH launchers in place of all but two of their dolphin launchers. These modified rockets are slightly larger, have heavier casing, proportionally larger warheads and much reduced range, and replace their detonator with an adjustable timed one. The purpose of these changes is to produce a device that will go a short distance under the water and then explode, hopefully detonating any nearby torpedoes. If they should happen to be effective against near-surface submarines then so much the better...

Now I really don't think that timed fuses should be a problem, but it might be design-worthy. water-penetrating cases could, again, be overambitious, but I could see it not being, especially without an impact detonator.

Thing on the "To Do In Revision" list:
1) Steam smokeless solid-fuel rocket Catapults
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evictedSaint

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Re: Intercontinental Arms Race: Spring 1941 (Design Phase)
« Reply #4931 on: July 18, 2017, 03:43:18 pm »

If nothing else, just ask for the engine swap. If it's out of the scope of the revision then it just won't be done.  There's reasonable arguements for both why we would and would not get it, and if we wouldn't get it anyways then it's not like it increases the difficulty.

NAV

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Re: Intercontinental Arms Race: Spring 1941 (Design Phase)
« Reply #4932 on: July 18, 2017, 03:55:22 pm »

We already know that engine swap is outside the scope of the revision, so asking for it anyway is just asking for trouble. We can't just keep adding things to the revision until it turns into a design and expect to accomplish the main goal. Asking for extra stuff Will increase the difficulty level.

Engine swap is a major engineering task, we don't just have engines poweful enough lying around. Deck armour is a higher priority anyway.

Also, steam catapults are anti-PAROI. We should fix the rocket catapults instead. Improved ventilation, oxygen/filter masks for operators, less smokey rockets, etc.
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Highmax…dead, flesh torn from him, though his skill with the sword was unmatched…military…Nearly destroyed .. Rhunorah... dead... Mastahcheese returns...dead. Gaul...alive, still locked in combat. NAV...Alive, drinking booze....
The face on the toaster does not look like one of mercy.

RAM

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Re: Intercontinental Arms Race: Spring 1941 (Design Phase)
« Reply #4933 on: July 18, 2017, 04:01:39 pm »

Yes, we shall produce rocket exhaust that smells of serene daisies after a light rain and invigorates the mind and body!
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Vote (1) for the Urist scale!
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Urist has been forced to use a friend as fertilizer lately.
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Madman198237

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Re: Intercontinental Arms Race: Spring 1941 (Design Phase)
« Reply #4934 on: July 18, 2017, 04:09:48 pm »

We DO in fact use better engine tech. They tried diesel to save space (And fit some engineering stuff inside the citadel that otherwise might not have fit) but they failed and got a sub-standard powerplant, meaning that if we replaced their diesel with our steam turbines (And this is by word of Sensei (on Discord)), we'd have a faster ship. That said, it's NOT within the scope of a de-[Complex]-ing revision. It needs its own revision. Or a design. See above post(s).
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