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Which team did you play in the last game?

Glorious Arstotzka
- 17 (16%)
Glorious Moskurg
- 13 (12.3%)
Ingloriously Didn't Play
- 76 (71.7%)

Total Members Voted: 106


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Author Topic: Intercontinental Arms Race: Finale  (Read 602339 times)

VoidSlayer

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Re: Intercontinental Arms Race: Summer 1940 (Revision Phase)
« Reply #2265 on: May 20, 2017, 03:11:50 am »

Quote
M4 Kiger HMG: (0)
BLOODLESS EAGLE: (1) Taricus
BLOODIER EAGLE: (0)
Chum: (0)
'Archer' Pattern F: (3)Wolfhunter107, Helmacon, Powder Miner
'Archer' Pattern G: (1) NAV
"Reachr" Ship Destroyer: (0)
UF-ALR-40 'SHARUKH:(2) Strongpoint, RAM
UF-ABR-40 "Shower Curtain":(1) VoidSlayer
SHMG-40 "War Horse" :(7) Mulisa, Madman198237, Piratejoe, evictedSaint, GUNINANRUNIN, Stabby, Powder Miner
UF-AC-40: (1) Azzuro

So strap a rocket to our planes.  Yes.  No I don't care that the original voter moved onto something else.

Kashyyk

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Re: Intercontinental Arms Race: Summer 1940 (Revision Phase)
« Reply #2266 on: May 20, 2017, 03:14:11 am »

To compound on Azzuro's argument,  I feel a portable autocannon and a squad heavy machine gun fit into the same niche, and the auto cannon will perform better. Higher rpm, anti armour capabilities...

Quote
M4 Kiger HMG: (0)
BLOODLESS EAGLE: (1) Taricus
BLOODIER EAGLE: (0)
Chum: (0)
'Archer' Pattern F: (3)Wolfhunter107, Helmacon, Baffler
'Archer' Pattern G: (1) NAV
"Reachr" Ship Destroyer: (0)
UF-ALR-40 'SHARUKH:(2) Strongpoint, RAM
UF-ABR-40 "Shower Curtain":(1) VoidSlayer
SHMG-40 "War Horse" :(7) Mulisa, Madman198237, Piratejoe, evictedSaint, GUNINANRUNIN, Stabby, Powder Miner
UF-AC-40: (2) Azzuro, Kashyyk

So strap a rocket to our planes.  Yes.  No I don't care that the original voter moved onto something else.
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Happerry

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Re: Intercontinental Arms Race: Summer 1940 (Revision Phase)
« Reply #2267 on: May 20, 2017, 03:16:40 am »

Quote
M4 Kiger HMG: (0)
BLOODLESS EAGLE: (1) Taricus
BLOODIER EAGLE: (0)
Chum: (0)
'Archer' Pattern F: (3)Wolfhunter107, Helmacon, Baffler
'Archer' Pattern G: (2) NAV, Happerry
"Reachr" Ship Destroyer: (0)
UF-ALR-40 'SHARUKH:(2) Strongpoint, RAM
UF-ABR-40 "Shower Curtain":(1) VoidSlayer
SHMG-40 "War Horse" :(7) Mulisa, Madman198237, Piratejoe, evictedSaint, GUNINANRUNIN, Stabby, Powder Miner
UF-AC-40: (2) Azzuro, Kashyyk

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Parsely

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Re: Intercontinental Arms Race: Summer 1940 (Revision Phase)
« Reply #2268 on: May 20, 2017, 03:17:13 am »

Again, I would rather have a GPMG over a HMG for infantry use in the jungle. It will be much more versatile on the offensive, which is what we're planning to be on. Unless people are convinced that we can make a HMG that's the weight (and thus man-portability) of a Sorraia, which is really quite impossible. And no, saying that it's on a cart is silly, unless you plan on asking our infantry to drag wheeled carts through the jungle.

Oh, and for air-to-ground, the War Horse would essentially be replacing the AS-AC18s on our aircraft, NOT the Sorraias. It is flat out impossible to replace the 7.62mm MGs with .60 cal and expect similar performance, so I can only assume it's meant to replace the AS-AC18s instead to make sense. And I'm not comfortable with replacing an autocannon design we've already used to great effect with an entirely new weapon, with a lower RPM. Let's just revise the AS-AC18 to be better instead.
It's definitely going to be a lot more portable than a 20mm cannon, that's for sure. We're talking about a 15mm here; if the American infantry can lug this around by hand in weapons platoons then we'll be fine. Honestly though I wouldn't mind a downgrade to 13mm so it was in a more proven size.

A lot of our aircraft are capable of carrying bombs in addition to their cannons and machine guns. The impact of replacing 7.62 with 15mm for fighter missions will be negligible.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2017, 03:21:12 am by GUNINANRUNIN »
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Kashyyk

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Re: Intercontinental Arms Race: Summer 1940 (Revision Phase)
« Reply #2269 on: May 20, 2017, 03:21:40 am »

Logically,  replacing a 7.62mm weapon with a 15mm one will double the weight of the ammo,  or halve the amount. And that's assuming the weapons themselves are identical in weight. It is far from a negligible change.
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Strongpoint

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Re: Intercontinental Arms Race: Summer 1940 (Revision Phase)
« Reply #2270 on: May 20, 2017, 03:27:55 am »

Quote
Again, I would rather have a GPMG over a HMG for infantry use in the jungle.
We  have general purpose machine-gun

Quote
Unless people are convinced that we can make a HMG that's the weight (and thus man-portability) of a Sorraia, which is really quite impossible.
No one expects that

Quote
It is flat out impossible to replace the 7.62mm MGs with .60 cal and expect similar performance,
Many fighter aircrafts went from using rifle calibre machineguns to 12.7mm machineguns during the early ww2 and they didn't stop flying.

15.2mm is larger than that but we don't know the length. If it is something like 15.2mm*80mm it is actually two times smaller than 20mm*100mm we are talking about at least two times lighter bullets so it is definitely not a replacement for AC-18 and fills the different role. So no. They will not replace AC-18, they will replace rifle calibre machineguns . What I agree with > they have no place in current aircrafts... but future\revised may like such machinegun

Quote
where even small reductions in weight free up the designer's constraints, or improve aircraft performance directly.
Saving few fraction of % of total fighter's weight doesn't do much. And we are talking exactly about this in this revise AC-18 action.


Quote
replacing a 7.62mm weapon with a 15mm one will double the weight of the ammo
By doubling the calibre(assuming that length is proportionally larger) you get 8 times heavier ammo.
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Azzuro

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Re: Intercontinental Arms Race: Summer 1940 (Revision Phase)
« Reply #2271 on: May 20, 2017, 03:31:42 am »

Again, I would rather have a GPMG over a HMG for infantry use in the jungle. It will be much more versatile on the offensive, which is what we're planning to be on. Unless people are convinced that we can make a HMG that's the weight (and thus man-portability) of a Sorraia, which is really quite impossible. And no, saying that it's on a cart is silly, unless you plan on asking our infantry to drag wheeled carts through the jungle.

Oh, and for air-to-ground, the War Horse would essentially be replacing the AS-AC18s on our aircraft, NOT the Sorraias. It is flat out impossible to replace the 7.62mm MGs with .60 cal and expect similar performance, so I can only assume it's meant to replace the AS-AC18s instead to make sense. And I'm not comfortable with replacing an autocannon design we've already used to great effect with an entirely new weapon, with a lower RPM. Let's just revise the AS-AC18 to be better instead.
It's definitely going to be a lot more portable than a 20mm cannon, that's for sure. We're talking about a 15mm here; if the American infantry can lug this around by hand in weapons platoons then we'll be fine. Honestly though I wouldn't mind a downgrade to 13mm so it was in a more proven size.

A lot of our aircraft are capable of carrying bombs in addition to their cannons and machine guns. The impact of replacing 7.62 with 15mm for fighter missions will be negligible.

I was not talking about making the AS-AC18 infantry-portable either, merely pointing out how the War Horse will not be anywhere near as usable by infantry as everyone seems to think. Quoth the Wikipedia:

Quote
Besides vehicle-mounted weapons, the heavy weapons companies in a World War II U.S. Army infantry battalion or regiment were each issued one M2 Browning with tripod (ground) mount. Mounted on a heavily sandbagged tripod, the M2HB proved very useful in either a defensive role or to interdict or block road intersections from use by German infantry and motorized forces. Hearing the sound of an M2 could often cause enemy infantry to take cover. There are numerous instances of the M2 Browning being used against enemy personnel, particularly infantry assaults or for interdiction or elimination of enemy artillery observers or snipers at distances too great for ordinary infantry weapons.

The M2HB was not widely used in the Pacific campaign for several reasons, including the weight of the gun, the nature of infantry jungle combat, and because road intersections were usually easily outflanked. However, it was used by fast-moving motorized forces in the Philippines to destroy Japanese blocking units on the advance to Manila. The quad mount .50 was also used to destroy Japanese emplacements.

HMGs are more of a defensive weapon, and I believe we are now committed to offence in the jungle. The last bit of that paragraph also states that the M2 Browning in the Pacific War was pretty much only useful on vehicle-mounting, not in the infantry role. It will not be a good addition to our infantry arsenal. (incidentally, the Pacific campaign was conducted in jungles very much like the one we are fighting in)

Also, your last argument is slightly fallacious. MG+bombs will be definitely less than HMG+bombs, unless you're proposing sacrificing bomb capability for exchanging the Sorraias to War Horses. (which, for the record, I am absolutely okay with after that incident, just pointing out that that's going to happen)
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Strongpoint

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Re: Intercontinental Arms Race: Summer 1940 (Revision Phase)
« Reply #2272 on: May 20, 2017, 03:41:09 am »

Quote
HMGs are more of a defensive weapon, and I believe we are now committed to offence in the jungle.
Modern warfare is not like this. There are local counter-attacks to handle even when you are on offensive. Also, we are on defensive in mountains and plains. I prefer to hold the ground there.

We have no HMG at all. Filling some niche with a revision is usually better than improving existing niche.
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Kashyyk

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Re: Intercontinental Arms Race: Summer 1940 (Revision Phase)
« Reply #2273 on: May 20, 2017, 03:43:11 am »

An emplaced autocannon will be just as effective as an emplaced HMG for defending,  with the added bonus of armour penetration.
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Taricus

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Re: Intercontinental Arms Race: Summer 1940 (Revision Phase)
« Reply #2274 on: May 20, 2017, 03:51:23 am »

Yeah, if we want our infantry to be better in the jungle, we need ways to supply them that DON'T rely on the waterways or he roads. We need heavy-duty parachutes.

UF-P-40 Cargo Parachute: This large, hefty nylon fabric parachute is designed to allow a crate of about 500KGs to be dropped safely without damaging the contents. This will allow our units to be resupplied from the air, so long as there is ample space for the supplies to land.

And technically you don't need a HMG of those calibres to deal with infantry, and as Kashyyk said the AC18 will be good enough to be used as a light emplacement gun.
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Azzuro

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Re: Intercontinental Arms Race: Summer 1940 (Revision Phase)
« Reply #2275 on: May 20, 2017, 03:53:15 am »

^what Kashyyk said.

Again guys, I think we've learnt our lesson about going for overly ambitious things on a revision. We will need a 6 to get an effective super-heavy machine gun that is portable enough to make a significant contribution on the offence (no matter how many wheels the cart it's mounted on has) AND is light enough to replace the Sorraia with no ill effects (as has been pointed out, nearly physically impossible) OR is reliable and powerful enough to replace our aircraft-mounted AS-AC18s.

And if you can guarantee a 6, then I'll vote for Project Blood Eagle II: Raw Liver
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Strongpoint

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Re: Intercontinental Arms Race: Summer 1940 (Revision Phase)
« Reply #2276 on: May 20, 2017, 03:54:10 am »

An emplaced autocannon will be just as effective as an emplaced HMG for defending,  with the added bonus of armour penetration.
Will be? We have an auto-cannon already. You are offering the same one with minor improvements

The weapon is quite large with a simple action but heavy barrel, weighing over 40 kilograms, and it requires being mounted to a carriage, foundation, or vehicle to fire with accuracy, although recoil is reduced by the nature of its action. Let assume we make it 35kg. What will change?

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NUKE9.13

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Re: Intercontinental Arms Race: Spring 1939 (Revision Phase)
« Reply #2277 on: May 20, 2017, 03:58:56 am »

Well, I'm going to suggest this again:
Spoiler: Infantry QoL (click to show/hide)

Given the quote about HMGs not being especially useful in jungle warfare, except when mounted on vehicles, I have come around to thinking that the War Horse would be a bad choice. I prefer something that will definitely boost our infantry's ability.

Quote
M4 Kiger HMG: (0)
BLOODLESS EAGLE: (1) Taricus
BLOODIER EAGLE: (0)
Chum: (0)
'Archer' Pattern F: (3)Wolfhunter107, Helmacon, Baffler
'Archer' Pattern G: (2) NAV, Happerry
"Reachr" Ship Destroyer: (0)
UF-ALR-40 'SHARUKH:(2) Strongpoint, RAM
UF-ABR-40 "Shower Curtain":(1) VoidSlayer
SHMG-40 "War Horse" :(7) Mulisa, Madman198237, Piratejoe, evictedSaint, GUNINANRUNIN, Stabby, Powder Miner
UF-AC-40: (2) Azzuro, Kashyyk
Infantry QoL: (1) NUKE9.13
« Last Edit: May 20, 2017, 11:32:45 am by NUKE9.13 »
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Azzuro

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Re: Intercontinental Arms Race: Spring 1939 (Revision Phase)
« Reply #2278 on: May 20, 2017, 04:02:27 am »

Quote
M4 Kiger HMG: (0)
BLOODLESS EAGLE: (1) Taricus
BLOODIER EAGLE: (0)
Chum: (0)
'Archer' Pattern F: (3)Wolfhunter107, Helmacon, Baffler
'Archer' Pattern G: (2) NAV, Happerry
"Reachr" Ship Destroyer: (0)
UF-ALR-40 'SHARUKH:(2) Strongpoint, RAM
UF-ABR-40 "Shower Curtain":(1) VoidSlayer
SHMG-40 "War Horse" :(7) Mulisa, Madman198237, Piratejoe, evictedSaint, GUNINANRUNIN, Stabby, Powder Miner
UF-AC-40: (1) Kashyyk
Infantry QoL: (2) NUKE9.13, Azzuro

Changing my vote to QoL. Sorry Kashyyk, but I think QoL might be the only compromise solution that can unite us to stop the super-heavy machinegun madness.
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andrea

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Re: Intercontinental Arms Race: Spring 1939 (Revision Phase)
« Reply #2279 on: May 20, 2017, 04:06:29 am »


Quote
M4 Kiger HMG: (0)
BLOODLESS EAGLE: (1) Taricus
BLOODIER EAGLE: (0)
Chum: (0)
'Archer' Pattern F: (3)Wolfhunter107, Helmacon, Baffler
'Archer' Pattern G: (2) NAV, Happerry
"Reachr" Ship Destroyer: (0)
UF-ALR-40 'SHARUKH:(2) Strongpoint, RAM
UF-ABR-40 "Shower Curtain":(1) VoidSlayer
SHMG-40 "War Horse" :(7) Mulisa, Madman198237, Piratejoe, evictedSaint, GUNINANRUNIN, Stabby, Powder Miner
UF-AC-40: (1) Kashyyk
Infantry QoL: (3) NUKE9.13, Azzuro, Andrea

I prefer boosting infantry to getting that HMG
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