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[Reelya]

I agree up to a point. And again, that point falls before 24 weeks.

I'm not arguing for a father-veto. Just the father's voice being heard.

There's an argument that if at any point after the egg is fertilized then it's murder, because you denied a life. However, since at that point it's clearly a non- sentient ball of chemistry, the argument of "you denied a potential life" leads to the conclusion that you shouldn't wear a condom and should constantly maximize the number of children you produce so that you're minimizing the number of potential lives you're denying. The guy who bangs every woman he can get without a condom and fathers 15 children, who's more Christian than that? Theoretically, since you had 15 less kids than him, you're at +15 potential murders compared to him.

[feelotraveller]

Obligatory Monty Python video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUspLVStPbk

Every sperm is sacred,
Every sperm is great.
If a sperm is wasted,
God gets quite irate.

(Zealous cat-lickers might want to take a deep breath or two.)

[Naturegirl1999]

Obligatory Monty Python video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUspLVStPbk

Every sperm is sacred,
Every sperm is great.
If a sperm is wasted,
God gets quite irate.

(Zealous cat-lickers might want to take a deep breath or two.)

(are there people who lick cats? This is new info to me)

[feelotraveller]

'Tis a bit of wordplay on my part - close to a homophone at that - around the name of one particularly well known religion.  (It's given away in the clip pretty early on if you are still in doubt.)

Beyond that, the world being the wonderful and varied place that it is there probably are some actual cat lickers somewhere.  Can't claim to personally know any though...

[Egan_BW]

I mean, cats tend to lick cats.

[SOLDIER First]

personally i think that if abortions become illegal it should in turn become legal to force men to adopt unwanted babies and care for them until they're 18

[Naturegirl1999]

personally i think that if abortions become illegal it should in turn become legal to force men to adopt unwanted babies and care for them until they're 18

Sounds like a fair compromise, though I’d rather abortion stay legal

[Arx]

personally i think that if abortions become illegal it should in turn become legal to force men to adopt unwanted babies and care for them until they're 18

Only if it's their child. And isn't that sort of the point already? Like you either have to be there or pay child support.

Also I guess I'm out of this discussion now. We've gone past everyone actually talking about it into people randomly contributing nothing except "pro lifers are stupid", so I'll save myself the stress.

[SOLDIER First]

this was a joke meant to illustrate the ridiculousness of the idea of forcing someone to be responsible for a child against their will, i.e. that of preventing a pregnant person from getting an abortion. i do not actually think we should do this if abortion is criminalized

on a related note, pro-lifers are stupid

[Reelya]

personally i think that if abortions become illegal it should in turn become legal to force men to adopt unwanted babies and care for them until they're 18

There is actually a coherent argument about that as an extension of pro-choice. For example, a woman consenting to sex isn't automatically consenting to having, paying for, or raising a baby. So, should a man be forced to pay for a child he didn't want - which is the same as saying he didn't automatically consent to making a baby when he consented to sex. If you say to the man "if you didn't want the risk of paying for a baby you shouldn't have had sex" then that's not coherent since we'd be horrified if anyone said that to a woman. Saying that "take responsibility" argument to a woman as to why she must raise and support the baby she made would be considered the worst possible right-wing sort of bullshit, so it's not really coherent to use that sort of logic only when it's convenient.

The woman can say she wants to abort, adopt or keep the baby, and she has a level of future responsibility based on her choice in the matter. However, if the woman wants to keep the baby, and the man tells her to either abort or adopt it away, we would view him as an absolute monster. Basically any time the man's choice in the matter doesn't automatically match the woman's choice, we say his opinion on the matter is irrelevant a best, or just plain evil for disagreeing. In other words, the choice was not his, and responsibility without choice is fundamentally anti-choice.

Sure, men should do the right thing out of choice, too. However, if the choice is compelled it's not longer a choice and it loses all meaning, which ultimately devalues the choice to do the right thing.

EDIT: I'll point out that part of the meta-narrative is that if someone is compelled to pay child support if they leave a relationship, we absolutely do have to view that not just as a compelled payment, but legally mandated manipulation to make someone stay in the relationship, with financial penalties for not complying. If someone tells you that if you leave, then they'll get the system to force you to pay them, then that's a pretty unhealthy dynamic to enshrine in law.

[TD1]

I said the father's voice should be heard - ie be a factor - and specifically rejected  a father veto. A dialogue should take place. If the mother doesn't want her child because of economic worries and for some reason thinks literal death is better than an orphanage, but the father is as committed as I would be, there should be a mechanism to facilitate that.

On an unrelated point, I agree with Arx. I don't know when calling religous people 'cat-lickers' and zealots became the cool thing to do in this thread, but frankly I'm not into it.

[JoshuaFH]

Abortion/unwanted pregnancy is one of those topics that is inherently unfair, and any attempt to make it more fair just introduces more, different levels of unfairness. I don't think a perfect answer will ever be found.

[dragdeler]

-

[ChairmanPoo]

Insecurity breeds fear

Fear leads to anger

[delphonso]

What if Luke had been aborted.