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Author Topic: AmeriPol thread  (Read 4223067 times)

Kagus

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #36765 on: May 07, 2020, 01:17:06 pm »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p23nt9Lsm-Y

Bwahahahahahahahaha. How do you plot something like this without ridiculously extensive political and monetary resources? For fuck's sake, the bounty is only 15 million....

Also: PTW

Here's how:

https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/qj4dvd/captured-american-mercenary-appears-to-be-really-into-qanon

nenjin

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #36766 on: May 07, 2020, 03:48:50 pm »

« Last Edit: May 07, 2020, 03:51:30 pm by nenjin »
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #36767 on: May 07, 2020, 04:05:52 pm »

Well, yeah. It's not like you'd convict your own circle.
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WealthyRadish

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #36768 on: May 07, 2020, 04:08:12 pm »

I always believed in my heart that Michael Flynn was innocent, no matter what that slanderer Michael Flynn said to the contrary.
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nenjin

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #36769 on: May 07, 2020, 04:19:07 pm »

Well, yeah. It's not like you'd convict your own circle.

Fire them? Yes, absolutely. Convict them? Never. Rehire them? Absolutely.
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Cautivo del Milagro seamos, Penitente.
Quote from: Viktor Frankl
When we are no longer able to change a situation, we are challenged to change ourselves.
Quote from: Sindain
Its kinda silly to complain that a friendly NPC isn't a well designed boss fight.
Quote from: Eric Blank
How will I cheese now assholes?
Quote from: MrRoboto75
Always spaghetti, never forghetti

wierd

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #36770 on: May 07, 2020, 10:46:15 pm »

Maybe it's me just being my usual bastard asshole self, but I would totally convict somebody I believed to be a friend, if they were up to serious nefarious bullshit, and got caught red handed.

There's a word for giving preferential treatment to people you know or are related to. Variously, Cronyism and Nepotism.  Both are major offenses and negative traits in leadership.

If I were in government, and somebody I know personally was up to bullshit, I would prosecute. I would be open with them about it, and tell them it is not personally vindictive on my part, but that I cannot play favorites.


Clearly, this is a degree of integrity that is unheard of in modern US politics.
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Trekkin

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #36771 on: May 07, 2020, 11:45:38 pm »

Clearly, this is a degree of integrity that is unheard of in modern US politics.

Republican men are known to speak in the same absolutes about how they'd never personally get an abortion, and for the same reason: superior moral integrity is easy to claim for things you know you'll never deal with.

I can tell you from experience that real decisions in these matters are harder, especially once you get out of the levels where people are interchangeable cogs and you start to rely on their unique abilities and know their unique circumstances. The line between cronyism and relying on people of proven ability with whom you can work is fuzzy, as is that between judicious mercy and outright corruption. You can see a lot more grey up close.
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Bumber

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #36772 on: May 08, 2020, 12:24:40 am »

Remember Michael Flynn? Well, the charges against him for lying to the FBI not once, but twice, which he pled guilty to, have been dropped by the Justice Department.

One by one, his associates are getting off the hook. And without a pardon, even.

From what I've heard of the situation:
  • The FBI wiretapped Flynn, but didn't find anything sufficiently incriminating.
  • The FBI's Flynn file was supposed to have been closed due to lack of evidence, but had remained open.
    • This information is withheld from Flynn's legal team and the Judge.
    • One of the FBI's internal messages boasted how they had been "saved by their own incompetence" in this matter.
  • The FBI sent some agents to talk to Flynn without White House approval.
    • James Comey said on TV that he probably wouldn't have gotten away with this under Bush or Obama.
    • Andrew McCabe told Flynn the quickest way to get through the interview was to not involve the White House Council or any lawyers. They tried to make it seem like a relaxed meeting where they were just gathering information.
    • The FBI agents who interviewed Flynn noted that Flynn didn't appear to be knowingly lying to them. This information is withheld from Flynn's legal team and the Judge.
  • Special Council prosecutors use Flynn wiretap transcripts verus White House interview and accuse him of false statements to FBI agents regarding:
    • Contact with Russian ambassador (entirely legal as incoming National Security Advisor) and
    • not disclosing his lobbying for Turkey (generally you'd plea bargain for the FARA violation and pay a fine, as prosecutors would have to prove a willful violation.)
  • Prosecution wants him to take a plea deal and tell them about contact between the Trump campaign and Russia.
    • Flynn claims he doesn't know anything and won't give false testimony.
  • Flynn goes bankrupt from legal fees and has to sell his house.
  • Prosection tells Flynn to sign plea deal admitting to lying to FBI agents, or they'll prosecute Flynn's son (who has just become a father) for possible Trump-Russia involvement. Flynn signs plea deal.
It's not surprising to me that the case was dismissed when they started with insufficient evidence and withheld exculpatory evidence from the Judge.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2020, 12:38:29 am by Bumber »
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wierd

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #36773 on: May 08, 2020, 12:39:11 am »

Clearly, this is a degree of integrity that is unheard of in modern US politics.

Republican men are known to speak in the same absolutes about how they'd never personally get an abortion, and for the same reason: superior moral integrity is easy to claim for things you know you'll never deal with.

I can tell you from experience that real decisions in these matters are harder, especially once you get out of the levels where people are interchangeable cogs and you start to rely on their unique abilities and know their unique circumstances. The line between cronyism and relying on people of proven ability with whom you can work is fuzzy, as is that between judicious mercy and outright corruption. You can see a lot more grey up close.

Perhaps, but here at the bottom, I have had to report abuse and neglect to superiors before. It's not quite as hypothetical as you suppose in my circumstance.  I know I would do it, because I have done it in the past. Been called a backstabber, and all that.  No-- when you have responsibilities for others, those responsibilities trump "doing favors".
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Trekkin

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #36774 on: May 08, 2020, 08:04:42 am »

Perhaps, but here at the bottom, I have had to report abuse and neglect to superiors before. It's not quite as hypothetical as you suppose in my circumstance.  I know I would do it, because I have done it in the past. Been called a backstabber, and all that.  No-- when you have responsibilities for others, those responsibilities trump "doing favors".

That's just it, though: you have a supervisor to whom you can hand these things, and clear, specific ethical guidelines to which to hold frankly fungible workers. That's not to say they're worthless, only that the ethical calculus becomes a lot clearer when you can just slot in someone else in short order and continue on.

Now, me, I don't get a supervisor. I don't get to make it someone else's problem when one of my minions crosses a line, and in general there are fewer than a dozen people who can do what I need at the level I need. If I burn someone for violating the rules, things don't get cured, people die who would otherwise have lived, and plans on which many salaries depend get rewritten. The trajectories of lives I've never met change, usually for the worse. Responsibilities to others can militate against strict ethics, too. Plus which, operating at this level leaves its mark on the psyche. I know you've never been through grad school to experience this yourself and it sounds hard to believe, but nobody who earned a worthwhile doctorate gets out mentally healthy, and the pressure cooker only gets worse as you go farther along. By the time they're useful to us, they're not exactly sane anymore.

So, yes, responsibilities to others trump "doing favors", but beyond the level of employee handbooks and company policy and HR departments -- when people expect you to write those -- the decisions get way more complicated. Sometimes I want everyone to dot their is and cross their ts and use their inside voices. Sometimes I'm just happy nobody tried to blow up the moon today. Mostly I'm trying to balance the two in order to reach an optimal state where everyone's in a suitable work environment and we're getting on with making everything better for everyone. In that environment, it's really tempting to deal with the little things internally, where everyone understands and there's some flexibility -- and at some point everything looks little next to the magnitude of what you're doing.

I can barely imagine what it's like when the millions become billions and you're responsible for not just one thing but everything for hundreds of millions of people. That's not to say it can't be handled wrong, only that assuming universal corruption is about a useless as assuming universal idiocy when trying to understand what's going on.
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dragdeler

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #36775 on: May 08, 2020, 09:57:33 am »

-
« Last Edit: November 24, 2020, 01:22:05 pm by dragdeler »
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nenjin

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #36776 on: May 08, 2020, 10:10:04 am »

Quote
Special Council prosecutors use Flynn wiretap transcripts verus White House interview and accuse him of false statements to FBI agents regarding:

    Contact with Russian ambassador (entirely legal as incoming National Security Advisor) and
    not disclosing his lobbying for Turkey (generally you'd plea bargain for the FARA violation and pay a fine, as prosecutors would have to prove a willful violation.)

Prosecution wants him to take a plea deal and tell them about contact between the Trump campaign and Russia.

    Flynn claims he doesn't know anything and won't give false testimony.

Flynn goes bankrupt from legal fees and has to sell his house.

Went bankrupt and had to sell his home after making $495,000 from his Turkey dealings.

Apparently, according to this: https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/03/report-michael-flynn-owes-around-usd5-million-in-legal-fees.html

A $1 million townhouse, several lawyers, forfeitures.....he's not the "little guy" getting beat up on by the government.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2020, 10:13:46 am by nenjin »
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Cautivo del Milagro seamos, Penitente.
Quote from: Viktor Frankl
When we are no longer able to change a situation, we are challenged to change ourselves.
Quote from: Sindain
Its kinda silly to complain that a friendly NPC isn't a well designed boss fight.
Quote from: Eric Blank
How will I cheese now assholes?
Quote from: MrRoboto75
Always spaghetti, never forghetti

wierd

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #36777 on: May 08, 2020, 01:05:45 pm »

Perhaps, but here at the bottom, I have had to report abuse and neglect to superiors before. It's not quite as hypothetical as you suppose in my circumstance.  I know I would do it, because I have done it in the past. Been called a backstabber, and all that.  No-- when you have responsibilities for others, those responsibilities trump "doing favors".

That's just it, though: you have a supervisor to whom you can hand these things, and clear, specific ethical guidelines to which to hold frankly fungible workers. That's not to say they're worthless, only that the ethical calculus becomes a lot clearer when you can just slot in someone else in short order and continue on.

Now, me, I don't get a supervisor. I don't get to make it someone else's problem when one of my minions crosses a line, and in general there are fewer than a dozen people who can do what I need at the level I need. If I burn someone for violating the rules, things don't get cured, people die who would otherwise have lived, and plans on which many salaries depend get rewritten. The trajectories of lives I've never met change, usually for the worse. Responsibilities to others can militate against strict ethics, too. Plus which, operating at this level leaves its mark on the psyche. I know you've never been through grad school to experience this yourself and it sounds hard to believe, but nobody who earned a worthwhile doctorate gets out mentally healthy, and the pressure cooker only gets worse as you go farther along. By the time they're useful to us, they're not exactly sane anymore.

So, yes, responsibilities to others trump "doing favors", but beyond the level of employee handbooks and company policy and HR departments -- when people expect you to write those -- the decisions get way more complicated. Sometimes I want everyone to dot their is and cross their ts and use their inside voices. Sometimes I'm just happy nobody tried to blow up the moon today. Mostly I'm trying to balance the two in order to reach an optimal state where everyone's in a suitable work environment and we're getting on with making everything better for everyone. In that environment, it's really tempting to deal with the little things internally, where everyone understands and there's some flexibility -- and at some point everything looks little next to the magnitude of what you're doing.

I can barely imagine what it's like when the millions become billions and you're responsible for not just one thing but everything for hundreds of millions of people. That's not to say it can't be handled wrong, only that assuming universal corruption is about a useless as assuming universal idiocy when trying to understand what's going on.

This makes a very large supposition:  The people are irreplaceable because of very specific skills, coupled with a very large caveat-- They perform at a high enough level that that performance rating itself is not replaceable.

In this administration, it is not a handful of missteps of otherwise highly capable people. It has been pretty clearly demonstrated that the entire cabinet (more or less), engages in conduct that goes outside of what is LEGAL, let alone what standard policies are, or why those policies were instituted (since you went there.)

This is on the level of "Yes, he holds the title of neurosurgeon, but he insists on doing icepick lobotomies, despite the fact that they are now pretty much illegal. He abuses his position as a setter of policy to override those rules for his own satisfaction, and ignores all the clinical evidence of how undesirable the procedure is, and how terrible its outcomes are."

EG, somebody that you REALLY, REALLY, REALLY need to replace, or at the very least, put underneath some very strong oversight.

"Who will you replace them WITH?" is a valid question--  In the case of Flynn, he most certainly performed his duties as part of a team; I would start there, and do an ethics review, personality and skills review, and then start testing out prospects from those teams.  It might be possible to retain flynn (and thus keep his expertise), after demoting him to a more restrained capacity, but he would still need to serve out whatever sentence is appropriate for his criminal behavior.


I would liken this kind of situation (given your angle in bioscience), to be like-- "He is one of the 3 people in the world who can do this work." coupled with "But he has started running his lab like it was fucking Theranos."

When somebody else manages his labs, and assigns him annoying oversight to assure his work remains good-- he can still operate as one of those top 3 people. He just can't work without his wings clipped, QED. (because the work quality flags, because standards and practices are not sustained, and he used his position to re-write the standards and practices to what he felt was comfortable-- and ended up with contaminants everywhere, like Theranos's lab.)




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Reelya

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #36778 on: May 08, 2020, 05:46:50 pm »

Well, yeah. It's not like you'd convict your own circle.

Fire them? Yes, absolutely. Convict them? Never. Rehire them? Absolutely.

They'd use the revolving door then. If you're fired from government because you fell on your sword for your buddies corrupt scheme then you get rehired by a friendly corporation or get a retainer to appear on Fox News or something. There are ways to reward friendly crooks.

On that note picture a triangle, with Politicians, Corporate and Media at the three corner, call those the Three Pillars. Then draw lines into the middle and put "Think Tank" in there. Things like the Heritage, Heartland, Cato etc. Or any of the AstroTurf organizations. The right-wing Think Tanks / AstroTurf are a service industry for the other Three Pillars. They do "research" for hire for the corporations, and by that I mean the corporation pay them to write propaganda thinly disguised as research. Then those "research" "findings" can be quoted by politicians and allied media outlets as if they're objective results.

Eschar

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #36779 on: May 08, 2020, 08:18:08 pm »

Is Barna one of those types of organizations?
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