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[Iduno]

A lot of them do literally mean nazis though. As the right has strengthened, the left has started adopting the same black and white perspective on issues.

Also, there are a lot of literal nazis out there.

This is why I've always ragged on Antifa, because that's what blinded by rage looks like to me.

The horrid blinded rage of not letting neo-Nazis stab and firebomb people while the riot cops watch on impassively, occasionally giving a thumbs up or baring an Iron Cross tattoo.

And punching whoever the hell they feel like, let's please not forget that.

Nah, the cops prefer to use their guns, riot shields, and batons. They don't punch anyone but their wives and women they've drug into alleys.

[Frumple]

Sweet fuck MSH, you can advocate for not setting the country on fire all you want. All I'm saying is that when folks spend more effort shitting on the less bad options available than they do the people plus goddamn ultra trying to fucking kill us it's kinda' shitty to deal with. Advocating for good shit is fucking fine, just save the overt shit flinging for the shitgibbon and co, at fucking least until they're not on the ballot for a bit. Or at least take the time to fling shit at them too when you're doing it.

What I'm seeing isn't folks trying to unfuck our politics, it's folks doing the same shit that left us dealing with friggin' emails for what feels like the last eternity.

[Iduno]

Sweet fuck MSH, you can advocate for not setting the country on fire all you want. All I'm saying is that when folks spend more effort shitting on the less bad options available than they do the people plus goddamn ultra trying to fucking kill us it's kinda' shitty to deal with.

Biden is 99% as evil as Trump, is the problem. The only issue is that Trump is seen as an unacceptable type of evil, because he doesn't try to hide it. We'd support the good Democrats if there were any left to support.

[Doomblade187]

@Frumple.

If it helps, please understand this. The reason so much activity comes out here for intra-party debates, is because we already agree that Trump is trash, and so is the GOP. So, it's not as controversial. Whereas, we have more opinions, and more complex opinions about left-of-GOP issues.

[SalmonGod]

Yeah.  My hatred of the GOP is a given.  It shouldn't need to be reiterated.

But... life is going to have enemies, you know?

Look... I grew up bullied and ostracized in school.  It sucked.  Didn't have a good meatspace friend for about 7 years.  You know what hurt more than the bullies?  The bystanders.  The majority who didn't actively engage in the violence or humiliation, but passively observed or laughed at the jokes.  And the faculty who would witness obvious abuse and neglect to do anything until the subject of abuse responded in some manner, and then dole out equal punishment to both parties.  I never fought back partially because I saw them do this to other bullied students.

The worst incident, and the closest I have ever come to actually losing control of myself, is when we were watching a movie in class and the kid sitting behind me spit on the back of my neck and kicked the back of my chair while laughing openly about it for a straight 40 minutes.  Not a single other person in the room said a word or even looked at me, and I locked eyes with the teacher the entire time.  The teacher just stared back at me, and didn't say or do the slightest thing.  I knew from everyone else's reactions (or lack of) that I was completely alone in that room.  The bully sitting behind me was the one doing the abuse, but it was everyone else in the room who indirectly communicated to me that I was powerless to do anything about it.

Is there any point to re-iterating that the kid who spit on the back of my neck throughout that class period was a piece of shit?  Not really.  It's a given.  What would be the point of writing a paragraph about how awful it was that they did that?  Would I be adding anything of value to this post if I wrote another paragraph describing the terribleness of their actions?  Of course not.  I want to know why that teacher simply stared back at me the whole time.  The conflict of values between the bully and I is settled.  There's nothing to say.  But boy would I ever have some words with that teacher if I ever saw him again.

Democrats are the bystanders and the faculty.  History isn't decided by the minority of villains who will always exist.  It's decided by how everyone else responds to them.  How they support the victims.  How they respond to those who choose to respond.  I grew up with a childhood dominated by bullies because everyone else cleared space for them, intentionally or not.

Trump and the republican party are fucking awful.  Absolutely.  And they need to be fought.  But we can't fight them, because the political space where that fight needs to take place is occupied by Democrats who refuse to fight, and will even actively obstruct those willing to fight.  They're either approaching just as bad and are just better at avoiding the labels that get applied to republicans for the same actions, or they believe that civility and norms are worth blood sacrifice, or they simply don't care and think having a blue checkmark is the sum of all ethics.  Winning the fight against shitty Democrats is step 1 to having the ability to fight even shittier Republicans.

[Frumple]

Would I be adding anything of value to this post if I wrote another paragraph describing the terribleness of their actions?  Of course not.  I want to know why that teacher simply stared back at me the whole time.  The conflict of values between the bully and I is settled.  There's nothing to say.  But boy would I ever have some words with that teacher if I ever saw him again.

And so in conversation you spend most of your time talking about the bystanders and faculty? Do you not get how that can come across as doing the exact same thing as those folks? If third parties come in and see folks doing little but throwing shade at people other than the bullies, they're going to start thinking the people talking like that don't actually have much of a problem with the bullies, or that somehow what the bystanders are doing is as bad as the fucker shanking you in the gut.

We've seen, repeatedly, what happens when we give less air to the worse misdeeds than we do to the lesser. People start fucking equivocating or ignoring them. Of bloody course adding that extra paragraph, and goddamn hammering that it's extra shit, adds value. It puts your weight of words and efforts where goddamn hopefully your desires are.

Winning the fight against shitty Democrats is step 1 to having the ability to fight even shittier Republicans.

It's just a fight we've friggin' lost this cycle, y'know? Bernie got goddamn crushed by a more moderate presenting candidate, again. Down ballot's largely been doing pretty badly, too, from what I understand. When in shit creek, either don't try to undermine the closest thing you have to a sandbar, or at bloody least save a balance of your efforts for dumping what you're digging out on the deeper parts, is most of what I'm saying. Otherwise you're probably just fucked with not even limited recourse, and folks start thinking the sandbar is somehow worse than actively drowning in shit.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

Bernie didn't "get crushed" so much as his campaign was subjected to an act of actual political power in the 48 hours leading up to Super Tuesday. For a similar example or what real power usage looks like, consider the actions of the US government after 9/11 in setting up the War on Terror.

Which is why the Dems have to go. They know what their part is, and they play it admirably, all the way up until the true power feels threatened. Then, and only then, do they display their competence.

Biden is not your friend. He is not your reasonable compromise (that was Bernie). He's not even your fairweather ally. He is, in a very real way, the true enemy. Donald Trump is a rabid dog, but Biden and company are sharp-eyed predators. Well, at least his company is, I have no idea how much of Biden's brain is still intact.

[wobbly]

I'm not convinced Biden is the lesser evil. Trump is visibly obnoxious, but whether he is worse or better then Bush Jr was is arguable. Biden resembles Bush to my eye, I'm not sure why he is being labelled a centrist. They seem to have similar values.

[ZBridges]

I'm not convinced Biden is the lesser evil. Trump is visibly obnoxious, but whether he is worse or better then Bush Jr was is arguable. Biden resembles Bush to my eye, I'm not sure why he is being labelled a centrist. They seem to have similar values.

Are you serious?  Biden is nowhere near as bad as Trump.  Biden wants to raise the minimum wage to $15, abolish private prisons, and bring down drug costs to match lower prices overseas, among other helpful changes.  Trump without question would never advance those positions in a meaningful way.

Source: https://www.politico.com/2020-election/candidates-views-on-the-issues/joe-biden/

[SalmonGod]

Democrats are the Saruman to the Republican's Sauron to put it another way.

And so in conversation you spend most of your time talking about the bystanders and faculty? Do you not get how that can come across as doing the exact same thing as those folks? If third parties come in and see folks doing little but throwing shade at people other than the bullies, they're going to start thinking the people talking like that don't actually have much of a problem with the bullies, or that somehow what the bystanders are doing is as bad as the fucker shanking you in the gut.

Yes.  Because they are the reason the bullies get to do what they do.  They are the ones that need to change in order to have the capability to address the bullying.

In actual political terms, as I said, the Democrats occupy the political space from which a political fight against Republicans as possible, and they don't use it.  Without having access to that space, the only other option is direct action.  And there again, we saw just a short ways up the thread how moderates respond to direct action.  They spend all their energy talking about how anti-fascists are just as bad as fascists, defending free speech and civility, but only when it benefits fascists.  And then we're forced to respond to that by talking about how actually comparing what we're doing to fascism is an invalid equivocation, which turns into a bitch fest about how moderates respond to issues involving actually bad things by civility policing.  And that in turn provokes an inquisition about "why do anti-fascists spend more time complaining about moderates than fascists?"  What the fuck are we supposed to do?  It doesn't seem to matter.  We're the subject of blame and ridicule no matter what.  Actually do anything and we're opposed by moderates.  Complain about moderates, and get "why don't you spend more time criticizing fascists?"

Are you serious?  Biden is nowhere near as bad as Trump.  Biden wants to raise the minimum wage, abolish private prisons, and bring down drug costs to match lower prices overseas, among other helpful changes.  Trump without question would never support those positions.

Source: https://www.politico.com/2020-election/candidates-views-on-the-issues/joe-biden/

I don't believe for a second that these are his sincerely held positions, or what he would actually do in office.  It's the exact opposite of his long political history.  Trust and integrity matter.  Basing your voting decisions on stated platform is a recipe for perpetual disappointment.

Remember when Obama campaigned on transparency?

[ZBridges]

Taking a look at his voting history, he voted three times to increase the minimum wage, in 1999, 2005, and 2007.  He also voted several times to reduce prescription drug costs through Medicare in 2000, 2005, and 2007.  His political history doesn't contradict his platform.

Source: https://www.ontheissues.org/joe_biden.htm

[dragdeler]

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[sluissa]

As much as I'm not a fan of Biden, there is no political angle you can approach this from where he's anywhere near as bad as Trump.

[dragdeler]

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[wobbly]

As much as I'm not a fan of Biden, there is no political angle you can approach this from where he's anywhere near as bad as Trump.

Not convinced he's better or worse, just saying you've had far more pleasant presidents do worse stuff then Trump. They just made less noise about it. Not being Trump is hardly a ringing endorsement & no reason to think they'd be any better.