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[Reelya]

Also, what he does say is that:

“The Nordic model is an expanded welfare state which provides a high level of security for its citizens, but it is also a successful market economy with much freedom to pursue your dreams and live your life as you wish,” he added.

One point here is that if you look at the number of billionaires per capita in Sweden for example, it's higher than the USA. Part of the reason is that if you have more of a safety net, you can also afford to take more risks in both education and economics.
https://slate.com/business/2013/11/swedens-billionaires-they-have-more-per-capita-than-the-united-states.html

if pundits are calling the US welfare system 'socialist' and also saying that Scandinavia "isn't really socialist" because they're merely states with an expanded welfare system, then that's actually quite strange. It's using contradictory definitions on an ad-hoc basis, and thus it's not a logically consistent set of positions to hold.

It's also confusing the label with the real thing.

Sanders: I'll bring in universal health coverage
Pundit: but that's socialism!
Sanders: Well ... it works in other countries like Denmark, doesn't it? That's exactly what I'm proposing.
Pundit: Sure Denmark works great, but they're not really socialist so it won't work here!

See how there's kinda a weird gap in that argument against the idea

[Naturegirl1999]

Right. I don't expect politicians to hold logical positions anyway, it would be good if positions were based on logic and facts, but sadly, this is not the case.

[Dutchling]

Well, regardless of whether you consider Bernie leftwing or rightwing, I'm glad the commie got trashed lol. Hopefully this time he concedes a little sooner.

[McTraveller]

What does billionaires per capita mean anyway? That your countrymen are more adept at aggregating unrealistic amounts of wealth?

Also I'd really like to understand more about this "with much freedom to pursue your dreams and live your life as you wish" comment.

Does "the Nordic model" have lower barriers to entry? Easier permitting requirements? Does it have simpler bankruptcy laws? Does the government guarantee they will buy some minimum amount of your product?  Does the government pay your rent/mortgage when you spend all your cash on your initial inventory or whatever?

I'm not being facetious here - I really want to know what they mean by that and how it works, and what's different.  And I don't fully buy the "has better social safety nets" argument - because even if a safety net puts a roof over your head, food in your stomach, and pays for health care, you still need some mechanism to fund whatever activities you want to undertake above that.

For example, what happens in these countries when you take out a business loan and can't repay it?

[scriver]

You get the Crown's Bailiff on your arse

[Cheesy Honkers]

And you, presumably, were wrong in it.

You also don't seem to understand what neo-liberalism is, from this here comment.

Please do tell me how does a capitalist society centered around a free market with the addition of a social safety net constitute a society in which the means of production are owned by the people who work. In fact, because I'm sure you're not just throwing words to the wind, I'd like to hear your definition of socialism, just so that we don't waste time arguing semantics.

As for the definition of neoliberalism, it is an economic thought based of old style laissez-faire economics, inspired largely by boys from the austrian school and implemented by cheery chappies like Reagan, Pinochet or Thatcher. In practice, neoliberal economies benefit mostly the already rich while driving the poor deeper into poverty.

If you recall my comment, I said that neoliberalism disguised as social democracy wasn't socialism in reference to a comment calling most of western europe a place in which a hard form of democratic socialism is the norm. Unless you define socialism as 'government does things', that statement is wrong. Europe, especially it's western half, is very much a region where wealth is owned by a small elite and which derives it's prosperity from exploiting the natural wealth of impoverished regions of the world. As for how happy the workers are, I would point out that the people are so happy with how market economies handled the post 2008 crisis times that fascists are now coming back into power.

[Dutchling]

Spoiler: you hate to see it (click to show/hide)

[Naturegirl1999]

Spoiler: you hate to see it (click to show/hide)

Bernie being a centrist in Europe shows how far right-wing our contry is

[sluissa]

Bernie is not a centrist in Europe. Bernie is left wing in Europe. Bernie is left wing almost anywhere. Europe has their fair share of right wingers that would match up nicely to Trump and McConnell just as they have their fair share of left wingers that would match up with Bernie and Warren. The status quo for Europe tends to sit a little farther to the left, but that does not mean the people tugging on either end of the rope are all that different between countries.

[Naturegirl1999]

Bernie is not a centrist in Europe. Bernie is left wing in Europe. Bernie is left wing almost anywhere. Europe has their fair share of right wingers that would match up nicely to Trump and McConnell just as they have their fair share of left wingers that would match up with Bernie and Warren. The status quo for Europe tends to sit a little farther to the left, but that does not mean the people tugging on either end of the rope are all that different between countries.

Thank you for clarifying

[Il Palazzo]

Bernie is not a centrist in Europe. Bernie is left wing in Europe. Bernie is left wing almost anywhere. Europe has their fair share of right wingers that would match up nicely to Trump and McConnell just as they have their fair share of left wingers that would match up with Bernie and Warren. The status quo for Europe tends to sit a little farther to the left, but that does not mean the people tugging on either end of the rope are all that different between countries.

So what's so left wing-y about him? In the European sense, I mean. All I'm aware of his politics ('cause I'm not really following this shit) is his public healthcare stance. And I don't think that's something the majority of our right wingers would oppose. Certainly not in my neck of woods.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

Bernie's most leftist platform is probably a mandate for partial worker ownership of major corporations.

He also may or may not be planning to destroy the CIA.

[sluissa]

Bernie is not a centrist in Europe. Bernie is left wing in Europe. Bernie is left wing almost anywhere. Europe has their fair share of right wingers that would match up nicely to Trump and McConnell just as they have their fair share of left wingers that would match up with Bernie and Warren. The status quo for Europe tends to sit a little farther to the left, but that does not mean the people tugging on either end of the rope are all that different between countries.

So what's so left wing-y about him? In the European sense, I mean. All I'm aware of his politics ('cause I'm not really following this shit) is his public healthcare stance. And I don't think that's something the majority of our right wingers would oppose. Certainly not in my neck of woods.

That's the thing though, just advocating for public health care IS left wing. Even in countries where public health care is the norm and expected, that doesn't mean there aren't people in those governments continually attacking it and attempting to chip away at it, lowering funding, privatizing parts of it. Even sabotaging it internally to turn public opinion against it. You can see that sort of attempt very clearly in the UK these days, but that sort of fight is happening in many countries. And if it's not healthcare it's something else.

You can say that the left is more powerful or more entrenched in places other than the US. But that doesn't make the party in power suddenly centrist just because they've gotten what they want. Or do you want to start calling Republicans centrists (as much as they might enjoy that label) because they've more or less gotten everything they wanted over the last 20 years and have set the baseline upon which we are working from?

[Kagus]

Yep. Norway's current right-wing coalition government has been actively dismantling and selling off the public transportation system to private actors, because apparently someone thought that you could apply free market competition and avoid monopolies when managing the country's singular, government-built railway network.

Also they've been cutting funding and staffing for public health providers, then complaining that the public health institutions are underfunded and understaffed so we need to open up for more private providers. By giving them the money to set up and run their businesses.


We also have our share of batshit crazy-wing politicians, including one who got kicked out of her minister position for being the hilariously loud xenophobic hag that she is and sharing alt-right Facebook memes on her public accounts. Also plenty of folks who believe in the secret Muslim society that's infiltrated all branches of government and is planning to rename the capital to "New Mecca" and change the flag so it less resembles a cross.


So yes, the healthcare and safety net systems that we've had for decades are indeed still considered a lefty thing to care about up here.

We do actually have a literal communist party though. They recently hit a milestone achievement and got a whole seat in parliament for the first time.

[delphonso]

Warren dropped out, btw.

Edit: my bad, already mentioned. Missed it.